From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Apologia for bzr Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2014 15:54:49 +0100 Organization: Organization?!? Message-ID: <87txdhupmu.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> References: <20140103152117.GA16679@c3po> <20140104082857.GA22010@thyrsus.com> <20140105205645.GA12781@thyrsus.com> <87r48m2is1.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> <929DF82A-EF65-415B-84E1-46F23057CDB7@gmail.com> <87txdh42ya.fsf@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1389020204 30687 80.91.229.3 (6 Jan 2014 14:56:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2014 14:56:44 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jan 06 15:56:50 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1W0Bbj-0000Gk-ER for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 06 Jan 2014 15:56:47 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35682 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W0Bbj-0001KO-5z for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 06 Jan 2014 09:56:47 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:32818) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W0BaD-0000DW-A6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Jan 2014 09:55:20 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W0Ba5-00054d-Pw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Jan 2014 09:55:13 -0500 Original-Received: from plane.gmane.org ([80.91.229.3]:43902) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W0Ba5-00053g-Hc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Jan 2014 09:55:05 -0500 Original-Received: from list by plane.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1W0Ba4-0005uQ-2T for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Jan 2014 15:55:04 +0100 Original-Received: from x2f5214e.dyn.telefonica.de ([2.245.33.78]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 06 Jan 2014 15:55:04 +0100 Original-Received: from dak by x2f5214e.dyn.telefonica.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 06 Jan 2014 15:55:04 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 29 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: x2f5214e.dyn.telefonica.de X-Face: 2FEFf>]>q>2iw=B6, xrUubRI>pR&Ml9=ao@P@i)L:\urd*t9M~y1^:+Y]'C0~{mAl`oQuAl \!3KEIp?*w`|bL5qr,H)LFO6Q=qx~iH4DN; i"; /yuIsqbLLCh/!U#X[S~(5eZ41to5f%E@'ELIi$t^ Vc\LWP@J5p^rst0+('>Er0=^1{]M9!p?&:\z]|;&=NP3AhB!B_bi^]Pfkw User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:B7Uq+s/NVv9vR8FhM02MlrJYfUU= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.229.3 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:167467 Archived-At: Sivaram Neelakantan writes: > On Mon, Jan 06 2014,Stefan Monnier wrote: > >>> On the other hand, I’ve showed emacs to a very large number of new college >>> students over the years, both programmers and non. The keybindings are >>> confusing to many people. People who accidentally split-window are very >>> confused. Nobody was ever confused by the location of the modeline, and it’s >>> normal for common apps like web browsers to have a “Status Bar” down there. >> >> That corresponds to my experience. The main sources of trouble, AFAICT are: >> - window management: >> - how to get rid of a window (e.g. when *Help* introduced a split). >> - how to get back to a buffer that was somehow buried. >> - keybindings like C-a, C-x, C-c, C-v >> - naming (things like windows, frames, kill, yank). >> > > Speaking as an Emacs user, I don't understand this line of > reasoning. The same logic above could be applied to vi/vim, any > programming language at all. I ran into the same issues above and I > got help from this list or from the docs and even rereading the > tutorial. What's the issue with new users nowadays? All the > definitions are there in the manual...erm...somewhere but there. Help/Search Documentation/Emacs Terminology. -- David Kastrup