From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Further CC-mode changes Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 15:54:32 +0900 Message-ID: <87tx4620uv.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <53632C6F.5070903@dancol.org> <20140511211351.GC2759@acm.acm> <536FEA43.5090402@dancol.org> <20140516175226.GB3267@acm.acm> <537653A0.2070109@dancol.org> <20140518213331.GB2577@acm.acm> <20140912235948.GA4045@acm.acm> <20140913151055.GB3431@acm.acm> <87vboo2rgk.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87wq93ve4p.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87egvb2kye.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <831tra4y68.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1410936916 25438 80.91.229.3 (17 Sep 2014 06:55:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 06:55:16 +0000 (UTC) Cc: dak@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Sep 17 08:55:09 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1XU98u-0004EU-QW for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 08:55:08 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:42350 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XU98u-0005CZ-HY for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 02:55:08 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:52612) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XU98m-00059k-9p for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 02:55:05 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XU98g-0004DY-Tm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 02:55:00 -0400 Original-Received: from shako.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.161]:60689) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XU98g-000494-Io for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 02:54:54 -0400 Original-Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by shako.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59FF31C390D; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 15:54:32 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4E0D21A28C8; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 15:54:32 +0900 (JST) In-Reply-To: <831tra4y68.fsf@gnu.org> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta34) "kale" acf1c26e3019 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 130.158.97.161 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:174399 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: > > From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" > > Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 08:40:25 +0900 > > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > > > > I think it's ironic that when it comes to the XEmacs support Alan > > wants to provide, Glenn is all for "aggressive modernization" and > > devil take the hindmost, but when it comes to the same policy toward > > the git repo Eric wants to provide, he's the loudest of footdraggers. > > That's unfair to Glenn, and is evidently based on just 2 data points > out of many more. > > So let me add 2 more from my failing memory: > > . Glenn also lobbied hard to remove the old MS-Windows configury > (which I objected, and therefore it didn't happen yet) > > . Glenn suggested that the trunk relies on GNU Make, which did > happen, and made many useful changes which that enabled I consider those both to support my claim, which is that if it reduces the amount of work he needs to do to achieve a unit of Emacs development in the future, he's in favor of investing both his time, and users' time and inconvenience, in the change. If somebody else does the same, but it inconveniences him, he complains. That's *ironic*, no matter how dedicated Glenn may be to Emacs development. Of course I'm -1 on anything that makes it even harder for XEmacs to catch up to current reality. That shouldn't bother core Emacs people too much, although I'm glad it's a consideration for Alan and many other package developers. And you shouldn't be surprised that this is the point that piqued me enough to speak up. But ... My real point is that bzr has held Emacs back for long enough. Both Eric's obsession with the 36-24-36 conversion and Glenn's insistance that everything that is part of the bzr workflow be done for git *before* the switchover is executed are unfortunate. > If you consider the inordinate amount of work Glenn personally > invested in making bzr usage convenient in Emacs, you might come up > with an alternative explanation to his alleged "footdragging". Sure. The labor theory of value: if I worked so hard on it, it must be worth keeping. Thing is, bzr was a mistake from day 1, and it went mostly downhill from there. The consequent duplication of effort was not Eric's fault!