From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: use-package.el -> Emacs core Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 15:03:05 +0100 Message-ID: <87twout0iu.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> References: <564136F7.2020404@yandex.ru> <877flqe1a4.fsf@gmail.com> <87twoucaxz.fsf@gmail.com> <877flqc9jh.fsf@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1447164223 1204 80.91.229.3 (10 Nov 2015 14:03:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 14:03:43 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Juanma Barranquero , Dmitry Gutov , Emacs developers To: Oleh Krehel Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Nov 10 15:03:42 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Zw9WP-0000bE-Kv for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 15:03:41 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60062 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zw9WO-0006Fr-Uf for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 09:03:40 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:50690) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zw9W2-0006Eo-TT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 09:03:28 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zw9W1-0000oH-Vw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 09:03:18 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:34465) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zw9Vq-0000jT-W6; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 09:03:07 -0500 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48284 helo=lola) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1Zw9Vq-0002gV-3N; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 09:03:06 -0500 Original-Received: by lola (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 79E41DF5C0; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 15:03:05 +0100 (CET) In-Reply-To: <877flqc9jh.fsf@gmail.com> (Oleh Krehel's message of "Tue, 10 Nov 2015 13:40:18 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:193852 Archived-At: Oleh Krehel writes: > Juanma Barranquero writes: > >> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 1:10 PM, Oleh Krehel wrote: >> >>> Customize is for people that aren't yet ready to learn Elisp. Once they >>> do, it indeed becomes redundant. >> >> Then, that's an argument *for* use-package. It's for users that >> aren't yet ready to learn Elisp, but who want to load a package >> easily from their init.el. >> >> use-package is syntactic sugar, yes, and as such, it's easier to use >> that the "real deal". It is its own language, but that's a feature: >> if you're a user not interested in learning Elisp, to borrow from >> Phillip's example, certainly > > I have a completely opposite opinion regarding syntactic sugar: it's > detrimental unless you know what it does. In fact, I generally dislike > it even if I know what it does (see my thread on `pcase'). > > A user who's copy-pasting syntactic sugar won't see the structure behind > it. A user who's copy-pasting a bunch of `setq', `define-key' and > `add-hook' statements will eventually see the pattern and actually learn > the language. `setq' is syntactic sugar for `set' and `quote'. `define-key' and `add-hook' are syntactic sugar for various forms of `set'. The whole point of not using primitives is not having to provide every part of some pattern by hand. -- David Kastrup