From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk (Phillip Lord) Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Some developement questions Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2018 13:29:54 +0100 Message-ID: <87tvn2g665.fsf@russet.org.uk> References: <8336v6cvem.fsf@gnu.org> <8736v6icgt.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83tvnmb958.fsf@gnu.org> <877ekigiiw.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <837ekhb2me.fsf@gnu.org> <87zhxcbmtr.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83in409lub.fsf@gnu.org> <871sanb71j.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83y3cu7t9j.fsf@gnu.org> <87lg8t2ki9.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <20180827015422.lcq44zvsjffeau4j@Ergus> <83a7p76f5e.fsf@gnu.org> <87lg8p9o6y.fsf@russet.org.uk> <83pnxx1foj.fsf@gnu.org> <87k1o1a06q.fsf@russet.org.uk> <877ek1ql6u.fsf@toy.adminart.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1536236969 2810 195.159.176.226 (6 Sep 2018 12:29:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 12:29:29 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , spacibba@aol.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: hw Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Sep 06 14:29:24 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fxtPY-0000ZX-DS for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 06 Sep 2018 14:29:24 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33035 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fxtRe-0007Wx-Q4 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 06 Sep 2018 08:31:34 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:44720) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fxtQp-0007Wq-I3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 06 Sep 2018 08:30:44 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fxtQo-00078G-NO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 06 Sep 2018 08:30:43 -0400 Original-Received: from cloud103.planethippo.com ([78.129.138.110]:51207) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fxtQj-0004tO-Bl; Thu, 06 Sep 2018 08:30:37 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=russet.org.uk; s=default; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID: In-Reply-To:Date:References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=agjDOyohB5aMj4YuizyL0MWieZHGylciQ7sS2ENWkdE=; b=AYvQJfsYPWu1TGGU+QgjLeogO vIvehxPZ9DapwEYU2gUdOwF7R3/J8aSMK5LbyuW4Th1LLz/MOjzFzWa7+Dw9/aCJMGTF7vY33kUF0 w2yFvbNXV5XtQZPiTmbIAJg4lk4/tQ7AmRBQCgIPjoByDn37x89KIlXBSKflBqfhkZCMSgGvj7+6F 15j5yEYtrVuMiLQWdA3L8RPgx5q0v5hv7APKRJFt/APlwRmcRi5XcO3wdNI1KJPfrAsr7jRymdSa4 4ujnIvPpfIEGvp3HxHziX4kSQfzlpZuw+7bpHCpS2WZIfWQO6ZHyhW1ueKJh2jn780PrVA2vBOrFr RM8D4Z1kQ==; Original-Received: from janus-nat-128-240-225-124.ncl.ac.uk ([128.240.225.124]:61527 helo=russet.org.uk) by cloud103.planethippo.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1fxtQ3-00Aov4-1Y; Thu, 06 Sep 2018 12:29:55 +0000 In-Reply-To: <877ek1ql6u.fsf@toy.adminart.net> (hw@adminart.net's message of "Tue, 04 Sep 2018 18:30:49 +0200") X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - cloud103.planethippo.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnu.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - russet.org.uk X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: cloud103.planethippo.com: authenticated_id: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk X-Authenticated-Sender: cloud103.planethippo.com: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 78.129.138.110 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229340 Archived-At: hw writes: > phillip.lord@russet.org.uk (Phillip Lord) writes: > >> Personally, I would like to ditch all the "how to move around" with >> keys stuff -- this scares most people to hell, because they think that >> they need to learn this to do something that they already know how to >> do these things. > > right > > The current tutorial is more suited to drive people away than anything > else. > > Who knows what a META or an EDIT key is? And who cares? Even after > almost 30 years of getting used to them, I'm finding notations like 'C-x > ret f' or 'M-w' very confusing. How does that belong into a tutorial? I think we need to introduce this notation, because people will see it everywhere; but we should not depend on it. > People might use C-v to copy something rather than to scroll. They will > use the cursor keys and PgUp and PgDown to move around. There is a separate question here about making Emacs better out-of-the-box. One of the things that might improve things is to turn CUA mode on by default for instance. > Your tutorial even explains what Emacs is and gives some history. That > is a much more welcoming start. Thank you! >> In terms of advanced issues, my thought was to enable tutorial >> extensions to go into ELPA and then have a navigational structure. > > Maybe several tutorials would be better, like one covering what Emacs is > (nowadays that may be a good idea), one covering the first steps and > others covering the installation of packages after users have aquired > some understanding of what packages are. There is also the practical reality that the Emacs update cycle is relatively slow. A tutorial on ELPA could be updated out of that cycle. Phil