From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Karl Fogel Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: GNU Emacs raison d'etre Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 23:20:17 -0500 Message-ID: <87tv0jqha6.fsf@red-bean.com> References: <5230692c-c665-a330-7a12-e59fa25d97dd@gmail.com> <70bb51fd-447d-928c-4d69-1c9673a44471@online.de> <871rnnvmdx.fsf@red-bean.com> <868shvfpbk.fsf@duenenhof-wilhelm.de> Reply-To: Karl Fogel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="117619"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: excalamus@tutanota.com, Nathan Colinet , andreas.roehler@online.de, Richard Stallman , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: dieter@duenenhof-wilhelm.de (H. Dieter Wilhelm) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu May 14 06:20:55 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jZ5Md-000UV0-3F for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 06:20:55 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:53328 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jZ5Mc-0001Ca-5N for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 00:20:54 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:54434) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jZ5M5-0000Ml-QL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 00:20:21 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-oi1-x22e.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::22e]:36087) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jZ5M5-0006VH-41; Thu, 14 May 2020 00:20:21 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-oi1-x22e.google.com with SMTP id x7so22560908oic.3; Wed, 13 May 2020 21:20:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:reply-to:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=AMldKUUeTKKMv8B6sS/qTQmEI3cTL4Rdvn2AclYLuOk=; b=fzWwnsIkNb3DjqNAd2XGice7lnHKYwE4tKKHdOzCq2KaF8dsV0kUCchE5ACNeH/cDU spCoQ67CFBfkXGaEEUqw0mKcYm9xE2DMkw9b3OTuBLkTQ4Ovvd53m6ZSo/VQdLntrAj8 I0/w4TEKfqvvCycwmaYju/G0uTAkNU8JQGNOVwgbqcf8ZfqltFnfQ9fZIZNHe+f2PMVF DMpLaGwYebzmPgO0t8xGJhEPZ8l2NrGoxc+CIh+lHbfHHSkrfeWQN48IwLrWgNqbjowm QqtkiEzisrzHUr03CH3wXgGWeFwRtR7IBw95DTMdsX7oWlLyMos3oosYh/OsmfAiyB5G v/Yw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:reply-to :date:in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=AMldKUUeTKKMv8B6sS/qTQmEI3cTL4Rdvn2AclYLuOk=; b=nxVtT0Crg0ZWp186+Kpk51Td0YOdU+mCEFj93nprpK4iS2LoW24fSCGJ9qp1cB14Z+ 48uXJ0hYPzadHAu/jtP5E04GJaTfADgmxD1YSUF0yP8lFc8wzxjDPt77eTvN4FrFG9If fvVUxp8XGAO4EF2kJXnQbHe49kt4VffG55BTgY9nlaxhOppmXPAm3qXhLrUwHUlwaMdA ePbY6/FjdCxIokDkLbDz5VJxaOdMpRk84DQUsP7AWeArCgC9ckrKPBcPPyWwYygZWvV1 hEstL7goyTy9L5EODW3yGewa3BldwlOCzt9rXWN+Lp8wiZycrU0kevcmCegt524/+75c 4viQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYPl0cQhsaWVaQHdr7u+ccmKiSnTLZDy07wT8uUnz5J8LO0NE6S ClwbECSHfBQqu0QL6hIK9bHKe3D2 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypI+lxUOuWTVXMvZJg/UBGVTMLWACwm/HeMvloDbLtDzsQ1Gznqr9mSo1GYrm6MpR2/N3JEMLA== X-Received: by 2002:aca:54d6:: with SMTP id i205mr30363519oib.109.1589430019262; Wed, 13 May 2020 21:20:19 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from floss (99-112-125-163.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net. [99.112.125.163]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b19sm6599988oii.1.2020.05.13.21.20.17 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 13 May 2020 21:20:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <868shvfpbk.fsf@duenenhof-wilhelm.de> (H. Dieter Wilhelm's message of "Thu, 14 May 2020 00:22:07 +0200") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::22e; envelope-from=kfogel@gmail.com; helo=mail-oi1-x22e.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:250186 Archived-At: On 14 May 2020, H. Dieter Wilhelm wrote: >> To the best of my knowledge, no other editing environment rewards >> sustained user investment so well. ... > >What you are saying is really very well put and I support your opinion >but... > >> So I suggest that GNU Emacs's raison d'=C3=AAtre is to be the text editor >> that best rewards sustained user investment. > >Forgive me if I think above sentence should be a bit reformulated >because GNU Emacs is and must be more than a text editor (as text editor >I would choose Vim). Yes, agreed. My choice of terminology merely shows how deeply Emacs has af= fected my perception and caused me to use words differently from how others= use them :-). After 28 years inside Emacs, the phrase "text editor" for m= e simply *means* all the things Emacs does with text -- including handling = email, running command-line shells, browsing directory structures, performi= ng version control operations, etc. (Vi/vim also highly rewards investment, as a pure text editor in the more l= imited sense that you mean, although in practice its users don't seem to ta= ke extensibility quite as far as the most dedicated Emacs users do.) Anyway, I agree with you, and an improved phrasing might be: "GNU Emacs's raison d'=C3=AAtre is to be the text manipulation environment = that best rewards sustained user investment." >I like your notion of environment better, because Emacs should be the >glue between - effective - processes or workflows which (can and will) >arise around textual representations. Yep. (I agree with your later observations about Org Mode too, but my point is n= ot about any particular mode or package, of course.) Best regards, -Karl