From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ihor Radchenko Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: longtime user of emacs Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 15:10:34 +0800 Message-ID: <87tuy9l0d1.fsf@localhost> References: <87365uel05.fsf@localhost> <878sfl9vti.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="28822"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: "andres.ramirez" , Jeff Norden , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Po Lu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Jul 15 09:11:58 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jvbaA-0007Ne-78 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 09:11:58 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55872 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jvba9-0003Ub-81 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 03:11:57 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:53184) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jvbZX-0002bR-W5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 03:11:20 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pl1-x634.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::634]:36852) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jvbZV-0000nJ-UC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 03:11:19 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pl1-x634.google.com with SMTP id t6so2013886plo.3 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 00:11:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :mime-version; bh=zfYp9yCeZFMkQ5OzhRQPLnKpgXwlbtbt4GT3Sc4k1pk=; b=hE/nusJ3IvqUCceRGfEvnvTvnEdi/iwoi6viC+P5a2GAK4nMfrxm4ON9fp3Dyj4PZa f0N1RsJoRiqzpDSRkfOK4hQvVvnIqnuBD0SBR4pHq45gtxJ8DFkZnxvdihS2J2cld5c/ V02Bn7+3TNSdI/bZEMI6ydSu09hRaWFeGamoyxR2YHtnvwdElh3LtDl5l/bSR8oI3yDU PGvoLyfcaYmZv7dmm84+Q5hvQ14CMEWXUyLwZ4YhmewPiy1Bgl3ti15l4p/oLqxwsx3w 3MJgm7fmcekJ4+B+nNdszI2E7AlezqPCq6g9jletBM19IrwFZ78VZcFMBSDDh97AAJRu rlMg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:mime-version; bh=zfYp9yCeZFMkQ5OzhRQPLnKpgXwlbtbt4GT3Sc4k1pk=; b=DeZgM2MIu7lCgPpwxNRPPhx9Q7WRAHxME87qdCmUkauLWxYBm8j47HKxPtjoCcAFx3 xOlIGpEvwa/bJ0/Te4QiiJLLf0KIVABGhmjqdNRRJKqecMsm9l8u3t8/JdBlGtEJMAYo BLeueHfidmryRWjyScSppZiNhpp7p/DKd1dAJAgDLF2xfGDB8jirYujzCctvJdweHbRk waDznVlJHWdiI5DTyKctA/L32FT7EHae6i4HLja6G55pyw0skvTpAmaC8ne4anAyfiFW mTRA5DLv/RVeE5fpqK8kql9SNVlF2+1iZyXDNUiY5lL1a8Wl4kahyJWx+v8eah14A282 ffZg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532FdCczuALglp/s5hPFD6uFu+ne/F6CuOSiAfK61pX/PELYwtrI MMzm5UdTCf27eZ5IWgaqxdY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwTX9Oxgrft2WZNvqPhWRTNptxDwxBrWGTT9q6fdIegs66f8VeNzmX0PjRJ/yuc6J1E3Vclhw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:d911:: with SMTP id c17mr6940985plz.227.1594797075770; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 00:11:15 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from localhost ([23.27.206.164]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v2sm1000004pje.19.2020.07.15.00.11.09 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 15 Jul 2020 00:11:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <878sfl9vti.fsf@yahoo.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::634; envelope-from=yantar92@gmail.com; helo=mail-pl1-x634.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:252965 Archived-At: > I think this solution was proposed by a few people a few months back, > when this discussion started. Could you point me to relevant thread? I lost track of that discussion at some point. > It would be nice if people came up with > an idea as to how exactly this functionality is to be implemented, > and a > set of better usecases than just 'programming' or 'note-taking' or > 'TRAMP' or 'git'. As one possibility, we can try to extend "A guided tour to Emacs" and make it more interactive. Some thoughts: 1. The link to the tour in the welcome page is not easy to spot for a new user. There is too much information. I might be better to show it by default on first startup after installation. 2. Currently, the tour is one long web-page, which is not very easy to read. I imagine that a presentation-like style (with prev/next buttons on each page) showing one concept at a time would be easier to read. 3. The tour may as well include interactive customisation. For example, 'Migrating to Emacs' part of the tour may as well contain a clickable element to turn on CUA mode by default. 4. The tour might ask user questions if the user is going to work with source code, email, web-browsing, shell, etc. If the user is not planning to work with certain things, they may as well be hidden from menu and customisation pages. By hidden I don't mean completely hidden, but rather "folded" - the user should be able to show them back. For a newcomer, Emacs offers very too many different options. I believe that it makes more sense to restrict the customisation and menus to what user explicitly plans to do. It should be already more than enough to start learning. 5. Similar guided tours may be created for most popular Emacs features: - working with source code - org-mode - version-control and collaboration - remote file access - mail Those tours might also offer some initial customisation, so that the user may disable/enable some features which are not relevant to his/her workflow. The guides should be easily accessible from menu. 6. Some new users might be confused by default file open dialogie involving mode-line. I believe that similarly to CUA-mode, Emacs can emulate more standard approach by offering dired as a way to open files (not enabled by default, but offered as a customisation together with CUA-mode). Best, Ihor Po Lu writes: > Ihor Radchenko writes: > >> I do think that the existing Emacs defaults are a good starting point >> for a new user with unknown workflows. They are generic enough to tweak >> Emacs in any possible direction. However, I believe that it would be a >> good option to have several sets of defaults, which would better fit >> some common use-cases, like programming, note-taking, tramp, git, etc. >> Then, the existing defaults will represent "Generic" use-case, but a new >> user (who may or may not have programming background) might easily >> select other set of defaults, which is more suitable for the user's >> background and expected use-cases. > > I think this solution was proposed by a few people a few months back, > when this discussion started. It would be nice if people came up with > an idea as to how exactly this functionality is to be implemented, and a > set of better usecases than just 'programming' or 'note-taking' or > 'TRAMP' or 'git'. > > P.S: Please don't suggest things like `use-git-mode' or > `use-tramp-mode'. That kind of thinking doesn't work out. -- Ihor Radchenko, PhD, Center for Advancing Materials Performance from the Nanoscale (CAMP-nano) State Key Laboratory for Mechanical Behavior of Materials, Xi'an Jiaotong University, Xi'an, China Email: yantar92@gmail.com, ihor_radchenko@alumni.sutd.edu.sg