From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [External] : Re: indent-tabs-mode default [was: Representation of the Emacs userbase on emacs-devel] Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2021 11:35:41 +0800 Message-ID: <87tuiycr5e.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <874kb1gjxs.fsf@yahoo.com> <87r1e4fueq.fsf@yahoo.com> <87a6krg8n5.fsf@yahoo.com> <1814c1e5-5085-bfee-9bc8-2cc66949e785@yandex.ru> <871r63g12g.fsf@yahoo.com> <87wnnveg30.fsf@yahoo.com> <10b4782c-ba2a-4d98-8934-258a1203055b@yandex.ru> <871r62ec1h.fsf@yahoo.com> <87y28al837.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="13544"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Tim Cross Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 06 05:37:00 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mN5RL-0003Nt-Af for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; 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Mon, 6 Sep 2021 03:35:51 +0000 Original-Received: by kubenode507.mail-prod1.omega.sg3.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 40c43e6795d2ae13403203edcae629dd; Mon, 06 Sep 2021 03:35:45 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <87y28al837.fsf@gmail.com> (Tim Cross's message of "Mon, 06 Sep 2021 12:22:36 +1000") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.18924 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.189.148; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic314-22.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:274062 Archived-At: Tim Cross writes: > Changing defaults is going to be annoying for some, just as leaving them > as is will continue to be annoying for others. In this case, it would > appear the two groups are about evenly distributed, so either way, some > proportion of users will be annoyed and using it as a reason to change > or not change adds little. > > The question is really what would be the expected behaviour for new > users? I don't know how to determine the right answer to that question > or even if there is a right answer. > > The only thing which seems important really is how easily the new user > can discover the right setting to get the behaviour they want and how > easily that behaviour can be configured. From memory, that was not as > straight-forward for a new user as it could be (but then again, for me, > that was nearly 30 years ago and things have changed, so perhaps it is > now easier than it once was. I clearly recall it taking some effort to > get the behaviour I wanted when first starting with emacs wrt tabs v > spaces). > > I also don't think all defaults are equal and should not be treated as > such. Some defaults feel somewhat arbitrary - indent-tab-mode feels like > one of these. However, other defaults are more critical as they can > impact on more subtle or advanced behaviour and selecting the right > default may impact on how easily users discover the benefits of that > advanced behaviour. I think the difference between "new users" and "old users" is that old users already exist, while the "new users" alluded to here do not exist. An "annoyance" to these "new users" is an annoyance to ghosts -- to people who have never seen, heard of, or used Emacs. Further, for as long as I can remember, there has been a section in the Emacs manual named "Tabs vs. Spaces". Any Emacs user, who has presumably read the manual before using Emacs, should know about the option indent-tabs-mode.