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(was Re: Shorthands have landed on master) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 17:02:12 +0100 Message-ID: <87tui2yruj.fsf@gmail.com> References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <874ka5gsqa.fsf@gnus.org> <25d8d72022b571db5291@heytings.org> <87h7e2xsl5.fsf@gmail.com> <25d8d72022e1ea7ed022@heytings.org> <87h7e2jjzy.fsf@logand.com> <87bl4ajg0c.fsf@logand.com> <877deyjc5e.fsf@logand.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="6837"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: emacs-devel To: Tomas Hlavaty Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Sep 30 18:10:13 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mVydQ-0001ad-IC for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 18:10:12 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46234 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mVydP-00006U-2R for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 12:10:11 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:43840) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mVyVk-00049Y-Qw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 12:02:16 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wm1-x32f.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::32f]:45635) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mVyVi-0002Ir-Py for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 12:02:16 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wm1-x32f.google.com with SMTP id b192-20020a1c1bc9000000b0030cfaf18864so4715945wmb.4 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 09:02:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=lfAM8V3AI5oEglenj7eAEhRa1j/SkBTT78VQcCb1c9w=; b=QefOmv1z8q2Yo9cC8kFe0iRBY5A4eOZG5LbnivzYv/WZKjSBIqmDqHUHyLwsDCDbe6 R0vAYdc72TLtNTxx3gB10f/Tnj5gMepEy4CKVij7nIm9ZJk1vrURjZ22E4Uglw0rxp/Z 70AbRn/nh9wWtrlxZDT5xbqAYIDesUYhHFb/IWwQUv5juXvZR3ZFmETWg6R5d/s665Em 2GI8SB5zMjF3237CWjrmusFUbFH/xVGqz93V1QBTsrb1wFuMmHbHYtp85GnaWyt/t3J1 60kLRHexTDUm4ZxpOTsBJHeRCtjV06FlEW5M8TMtYh7thql4KVEw9ALXYWqVCzbDQ1kP RvQw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=lfAM8V3AI5oEglenj7eAEhRa1j/SkBTT78VQcCb1c9w=; b=oE0k/12SA8J4olJ8hhpYGBYw2QECpdDDt3HDD8s0tGfeSWTcm0iaa3CWllBASYP2Dz aAknO1EWSXgoRaS58s6UIt2koRrp7ExCt1DBVYnkeKV5UNZf0TgwYhuAL6lAaW/A6DJ2 XJLiHLx9hYLuh3yp/b0dViSAp+hsuQYCzGqSClSf7DlMMNrce0D5Kcy2pHzDuoaq4eLK ScSy5fjxx8TLgqVSl9dRNVsgOHUf02mKCrpjrx0WBKUdR0xXX4Mx0sdH+1VQbEGl8/bj aqS2e0PZXpdCZ3spID1H5NefGhGYRNa6mIxRZ9nCE9Lylwbs5pSGa2+xnMXn7nhttDY/ 3L5A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5313uYFZwtHiJ/+V1/wnMXoVEKeux0R1Xxj07+3iUd+hfti6Sf5o mfZ/F7FGWPIwvij/+MyXrm36ulVUBHw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxf+/p5+CUVgcH8cTZRsl37VCTt32/I4pKFwsgU/GPBMjQlR9bLcJZ1thebvPsfh2TGMwcUVA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:a49:: with SMTP id c9mr16289185wmq.159.1633017732333; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 09:02:12 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from krug ([62.48.174.238]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 8sm3328054wmo.47.2021.09.30.09.02.11 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 30 Sep 2021 09:02:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <877deyjc5e.fsf@logand.com> (Tomas Hlavaty's message of "Thu, 30 Sep 2021 17:50:21 +0200") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::32f; envelope-from=joaotavora@gmail.com; helo=mail-wm1-x32f.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -2 X-Spam_score: -0.3 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (-0.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URI_DOTEDU=1.83 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:275911 Archived-At: Tomas Hlavaty writes: > On Thu 30 Sep 2021 at 15:57, Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora = wrote: >> On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 3:27 PM Tomas Hlavaty wrote: >> >>> That does not work. Common Lisp reader is programable. If you do not >>> compile and load everything needed sucessfully, the reader will fail for >>> anything non-trivial. >> >> Those non-trivial things are quite rare, > > Not really. > >> and good reader etiquette makes the code that is CL:READ with a >> non-full reader at least make a good deal of sense. > > What is "good reader etiquette"? See this section of CLTL2 https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node191.html See how some combinations are explicitly reserved for the user. Stick to those. > What if some library does not have "good reader etiquette"? > Do you give up search because of that? No, but it's like libraries using (intern (format nil "~a~a" "foo" "bar")) They're not making life easier for their users in that respect. > It is not a choice between one or the other. I need both. Please do > not break grep and web search. I explained how they are already "broken". In CL (the topic of this particular subthread), by packages and in every language that has any type of indirection. I'm saying they were never really "good" to begin with, not if you want to use the full available power in those languages. > There are some heuristics for choosing good names. Yes there are, and you shouldn't give them up, by any means. Jo=C3=A3o