From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ihor Radchenko Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Convert README.org to plain text README while installing package Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2022 13:13:17 +0800 Message-ID: <87tu8mv79u.fsf@localhost> References: <87leuca7v7.fsf@disroot.org> <8735gj4ceo.fsf@gnu.org> <87ee038ipt.fsf@gmx.de> <87o7z61v59.fsf@gmail.com> <87bkv527p5.fsf@gmail.com> <835yld93w7.fsf@gnu.org> <877d5t0yrn.fsf@gmail.com> <83o7z47m7y.fsf@gnu.org> <8735gfs3is.fsf@localhost> <838rq75jhg.fsf@gnu.org> <87fskfqj97.fsf@localhost> <83zgin3zcm.fsf@gnu.org> <87fskei4fa.fsf@localhost> <831qvy41oj.fsf@gnu.org> <87tu8rq2l6.fsf@localhost> <83czffzo73.fsf@gnu.org> <87a6aiqnpc.fsf@localhost> <831qvuw98i.fsf@gnu.org> <87wndmp63n.fsf@localhost> <83sfoaurqk.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="23445"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: theophilusx@gmail.com, acm@muc.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Jun 15 07:14:52 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1o1LMh-0005y8-Mc for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2022 07:14:51 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46016 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o1LMg-0000yF-2V for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2022 01:14:50 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:35662) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o1LKE-00008a-4j for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2022 01:12:18 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pf1-x432.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::432]:35776) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o1LKB-0002K7-65; Wed, 15 Jun 2022 01:12:17 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pf1-x432.google.com with SMTP id u2so10431459pfc.2; Tue, 14 Jun 2022 22:12:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :mime-version; bh=0ov+rVwO/D/SRtuboE2btcUBvyENr2hMnoJWgAN0mgg=; b=pWricjThPmuTvNe+ZO5/wT0rSmmWd20XWEZ8VH4UpduGMJNSwPjnispRraS7ZIuugk 49AuNlcEhnKilPcGEGQ1IAEHdoya5WINdtvIGrYKogkCK9tDv4E6kNy1RabElk/ABvsQ YUKMiqFMoJme1/AFfKMcA7FhYw3TtYKt7UMMJ692O4Jl1XWy2o9aVaAjXy9XXsfB3jQK PFv7xN70SfbMYCZWzNSkzWTWcYNXbUrHXppOg3lEvIC2CkvRxUalrK0nQW/zehgwiXsk CS0SOzppC5CJNotsSfcUz9q5kst4tVBSe+ueGDLMti66sH1uZ5iCiv5M3O+h8cOa408E crcw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:mime-version; bh=0ov+rVwO/D/SRtuboE2btcUBvyENr2hMnoJWgAN0mgg=; b=kAfwnu7lrIwxO65V1E/3Mmo6+Zc9JfGWR1t/nuNSSzU9EEPubEDO1g9R74afmngkMO zY2IXx+s5eOiIN+AVk6lLJbDAr8oEptZi96+PirqbdIsCshIR0T8SyRs2gcDpL3xTOb3 CB3FNxsjD0lvHzG23RKbXOr5Kh77833xlLJhWFhuyCNkxDyVaIMwdc27xAViSEzvPze+ yIfM4reWqGAIdo8q20wE/LdiW3CeikGPOFavbTwlst9Iz69yRxge3JrZr0k3E6VN1nbP dl+MOVlENRmJpeK7jekUfLaA1zMvuspRqzemne0sGXb/XL5xlymmaZnPp08iY2SLkuYv kfhg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531eIU/x6rUeut9c7w27nQSngFXtgbyqfOC85PzqsZ7RG5KoqX0R XgSXwFWA9fLAls1u7gjZZQ6R51+7JBKA9mgO X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzt3wlD3SR7aY+6z2KFcdpVmN0G0aFHlnMHaBwrktf6IJMnXQi+rXI4inoZ7+W5xwZQ09DQcg== X-Received: by 2002:a63:2447:0:b0:3fd:b97e:7f0f with SMTP id k68-20020a632447000000b003fdb97e7f0fmr7439168pgk.516.1655269930019; Tue, 14 Jun 2022 22:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from localhost ([155.94.207.39]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x195-20020a627ccc000000b005185407eda5sm8596691pfc.44.2022.06.14.22.12.07 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 14 Jun 2022 22:12:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83sfoaurqk.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::432; envelope-from=yantar92@gmail.com; helo=mail-pf1-x432.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:291189 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: > The syntax of TeX is dictated by an external tool. By contrast, the > syntax of Org is determined by Org itself. Not exactly. We have to keep backwards compatibility and keep in mind external packages. So, syntax changes in Org must be avoided unless strictly necessary. And they should be backwards compatible even if the changes are necessary. > Is an Org table always preceded by some directive that makes it > impossible to interpret innocent text as a table? If so, perhaps the > problems that were bothering me don't actually exist. > > But if Org interprets some text patterns as meaning that there's a > table here, that could be contrary to user expectations. Org tables are always preceded by ^[ \t]*| I am not sure what is the problem here. One can just not start lines with | or put zero-width space if starting lines from | is absolutely necessary. >> We do not assume that users always expect specific behavior. That's wy >> org-special-ctrl-o is customization. > > Relying on a user option for something that can need frequent > adjustment is not the best UX. defcustom is only a good solution when > it expresses a more-or-less constant user preference that change only > very rarely. If I may need to change the value before invoking a > command, that's inconvenient. I am not sure why you need a frequent adjustment of org-special-ctrl-o. This is the first time I hear about such a need. >> It's default value has been agreed upon and has not been questioned >> by many. > > Maybe because most Org users are frequent Org users and always know > what they want well enough? As mentioned, I have other kind of users > in mind. I understand, but we have to consider the needs to majority of users, right? Customizations are there for other kind of users. Almost any kind of default behavior, be it Org or Emacs, will suffer from some users not liking it. >> > I'm not arguing with the need, I'm arguing with the particular >> > implementation that caters to that need. >> >> Sorry, but I do not understand what you mean here, except that you are >> dissatisfied with the existing implementation. AFAIU, you objected the >> number of Org bindings. That many of them are not needed. I think my >> reply was targeting your objection. I did not recognize any kind of >> reference to implementation specifics. > > Adding keybindings is a solution to a problem. I'm saying that > alternatives to that solution were not seriously explored fro those > unbundled packages. How can you tell it with confidence? I, personally, cannot come up with any better solution and haven't seen any alternative to the existing numerous key bindings, except context-depended dwim bindings (which are also frown upon). If you have an ideas about any better way to deal with editing complex markups, please share it. Best, Ihor