From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Payas Relekar Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Adding use-package to core Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2022 17:25:16 +0530 Message-ID: <87tu33cavl.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="19073"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: mu4e 1.8.11; emacs 29.0.50 Cc: eliz@gnu.org, xenodasein@tutanota.de To: xenodasein--- via "Emacs development discussions." 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:299738 Archived-At: xenodasein--- via "Emacs development discussions." writes: >> I don't share Stefan's fears.=C2=A0 If the only issue with moving >> use-package to core is that someone must step forward to take the >> responsibility for maintaining it, I think we can move it into core >> without fear.=C2=A0 I see no reason for making a dedicated maintainer for >> use-package a prerequisite for importing it, given what John says >> about its stability.=C2=A0 It's a non-issue. > > Why don't you?=C2=A0 This package has been very popular for a long time a= nd > at least I haven't seen anyone complain about it not being in core. > Whatever gets included seem to freeze in time and becomes very hard to > make non-breaking changes, and their writers probably get frustrated > from that more easily and stop developing it.=C2=A0 There's ever more lin= es of > code and more packages, I don't think this direction is sustainable and > I hope you will reconsider this approach of adding everything to core > at some point. While Eli can speak for maintainers' perspective, here's my personal observations: It depends on package. Org-mode and modus-themes have only benefitted from being included in core and their development pace has kept up if not improved. Eglot progress may be harder to gauge, but at least in my personal observation, it hasn't reduced. As for use-package, 1. The package has been stable and working without many complaints for a lot of people (myself included) for a long time. For all intents and purposes it can be declared "done" (a.k.a. frozen) and not many will complain. 2. John has already mentioned that he is willing to hand-over maintains to whoever steps up to the job, and if they want to do it in core, that's how it will be. He has also mentioned that he doesn't have sufficient bandwidth to spend on future development of use-package hence the former statement. 3. Considering the adoption of use-package in wider Emacs userbase, I'd say it is already near impossible to make breaking changes. Moving to core only makes that process more formal with decade long deprecation policy. 4. If you need someone to complain about use-package not being in core, you can count this mail as first. When I started out with Emacs in 2020, use-package was already recommended way in half the packages I found, and installing it required adding MELPA. Depending on where you stand with technical and ethical grounds, this is already not ideal. Less elisp needed to be understood by newbies (even if one-line MELPA addition) the better. 5. While as a developer I agree that more code means more maintenance burden, we are not here to reduce development burden. Only code that is maintenance free is one that is never written, after all. However, Emacs is there to serve the needs of users. IME declarative configuration that use-package provides is so clearly supersior to current imperative manner that it is worth adding more code, especially if this new code is as battle tested as use-package is. 6. As for your last point, Emacs is not Python. One of the things I really really like about Emacs is, even if I never install a single package, the stock setup gives me a LOT of stuff built-in. While my personal Emacs is riced to the brim, at work I use plain Emacs with very very little customization (11 lines in init.el) and it does the job. Perhaps these points can change your point of opinion. Feel free to correct wherever necessary. Thanks, Payas --