From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Philip Kaludercic Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Org mode and Emacs Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2023 18:56:28 +0000 Message-ID: <87ttsn2boj.fsf@posteo.net> References: <87y1u8b1gj.fsf@gmail.com> <8735cgot9x.fsf@gnu.org> <83leq7naql.fsf@gnu.org> <86o7v3ryan.fsf@gmail.com> <87wn9qfyv6.fsf@gnu.org> <87r0zy63u3.fsf@localhost> <87h70ufwr1.fsf@gnu.org> <87o7j48eg9.fsf@localhost> <83ttsw2oeb.fsf@gnu.org> <87lee889ta.fsf@localhost> <87cyzcwtbc.fsf@bzg.fr> <87il93xzku.fsf@bzg.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="37512"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Richard Stallman , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Bastien Guerry Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Aug 25 20:57:20 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qZbzk-0009Vj-Lk for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 25 Aug 2023 20:57:20 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qZbz3-0000Bl-Bi; Fri, 25 Aug 2023 14:56:37 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qZbz1-0000BQ-EY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 25 Aug 2023 14:56:35 -0400 Original-Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qZbyy-0003b4-FZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 25 Aug 2023 14:56:35 -0400 Original-Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0093F240101 for ; Fri, 25 Aug 2023 20:56:28 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1692989789; bh=XIMe5h4Nvgfgs3He+meya+V9xZVAzRXvKwVqeUyYKaw=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Autocrypt:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:From; b=STQ8KpFy2cZUQPlRWGuSyF8dYXuzb7g41YtM0edetQ/uiBz1afyJt1iquOZIz0eEy cjFTJhxMouNQ5MN/CLbtZASzGZnV9HTeJmJpwQhHrMnAVzDqVIPFkTUu8ITjTYzvHk t1zNgRqreuDR+RntSpeTU5wTc0oJXKROV5i5d8TJefRxyAcQM3FmPETOozTniWvkJt qjfVn3KfOUi3y7GEW8ibtKkFIDwc96i9GHZqQQQfPGvwTyJlBJ1nEh9XRNNS9XnUO7 wexFA1UKYutVyUzX4fC25SUwrEhHypVTA7Pwa9pMaNrMb1fL3OptzioKBKX4eGfrw/ JhnIb/cR9twZg== Original-Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4RXTgw438pz9rxb; Fri, 25 Aug 2023 20:56:28 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: <87il93xzku.fsf@bzg.fr> (Bastien Guerry's message of "Fri, 25 Aug 2023 11:04:33 +0200") Autocrypt: addr=philipk@posteo.net; keydata= mDMEZBBQQhYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAHJuofBrfqFh12uQu0Yi7mrl525F28eTmwUDflFNmdui0QlBo aWxpcCBLYWx1ZGVyY2ljIChnZW5lcmF0ZWQgYnkgYXV0b2NyeXB0LmVsKSA8cGhpbGlwa0Bwb3N0 ZW8ubmV0PoiWBBMWCAA+FiEEDg7HY17ghYlni8XN8xYDWXahwukFAmQQUEICGwMFCQHhM4AFCwkI BwIGFQoJCAsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQ8xYDWXahwulikAEA77hloUiSrXgFkUVJhlKBpLCHUjA0 mWZ9j9w5d08+jVwBAK6c4iGP7j+/PhbkxaEKa4V3MzIl7zJkcNNjHCXmvFcEuDgEZBBQQhIKKwYB BAGXVQEFAQEHQI5NLiLRjZy3OfSt1dhCmFyn+fN/QKELUYQetiaoe+MMAwEIB4h+BBgWCAAmFiEE Dg7HY17ghYlni8XN8xYDWXahwukFAmQQUEICGwwFCQHhM4AACgkQ8xYDWXahwukm+wEA8cml4JpK NeAu65rg+auKrPOP6TP/4YWRCTIvuYDm0joBALw98AMz7/qMHvSCeU/hw9PL6u6R2EScxtpKnWof z4oM Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.66; envelope-from=philipk@posteo.net; helo=mout02.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:309219 Archived-At: Bastien Guerry writes: > Richard Stallman writes: > >> The term "as good as" may suggest, incorrectly, that this is a matter >> of comparing the two formats over some sense of _quality_. But that's >> not what this is about. The improvements I've proposed for Org format >> are a matter of _supporting the range of necessary constructs_. > > I'm confident we can support the necessary constructs in Org. > >> > Let's simply try to improve Org in general, and see if more GNU >> > maintainers want to use it as their native documentat format (the >> > example of Org's documentation shows it's already possible.) >> >> We need to be careful here. What does the existence of Org mode >> documentation written in Org format actually show -- given that the >> format doesn't support all the constructs that are needed in general? >> >> It might show that the Org mode documentation doesn't make all the >> textual distinctions properly -- that it fails to follow our style >> guide. If so, then it is "possible" but only with flawed output. > > If a .texi expert can report such flaws in the Org manual, we can then > fix them and, if needed, implement the necessary constructs. I don't know if this is of any use, but the initial manual for Compat (https://elpa.gnu.org/packages/compat.html) was written using Org and ox-texinfo and I later switched to writing .texi directly. This commit here documents the switch that includes a partial rewrite. https://git.sr.ht/~pkal/compat/commit/dd48603a136881a5321de4419be95ea873496172 Some things here might be difficult to map, such as the proper usage of reference macros or the different kinds of markup from (texinfo) Indicating. > >> But not necesarily. Perhaps it shows that the Org mode documentation >> needs only a limited subset of those constructs, and those are all >> implemened in Ogr format. If so, that could mean that Org format is >> fine for the Org mode manual in prticular, but is not adequate for the >> whole range of our documentation. > > I believe this is more plausible. > >> Either way, to make Org format adequate for that whole range of >> constructs, in all the output formats, will require working >> specifically towards that goal. > > Agreed, and this is what Org maintainers are working on.