Re: Org-cite: Replace basic follow-processor with transient menu?

Re: Org-cite: Replace basic follow-processor with transient menu?

[Ihor Radchenko]

[ CCing emacs-devel and the author of transient; maybe we can have some
  more suggestions this way ]

For some context, we are trying to create a customizeable transient menu
with items configured via user option.

We are also trying to pass additional arguments from prefix to suffix
commands in a way that there is no need to write suffix commands
specially just for transient.

Tor-björn Claesson <tclaesson@gmail.com> writes:

> Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:
>> Thanks! This looks much more clean.
>> Even better would be having a defcustom that defines the transient
>> layout. The idea is to avoid hard-coding [["Open" ... ] ["Copy" ...]
>> ...] and instead make it defcustom.
>
> Here is a solution that works for me. Is this an OK use of eval, or is
> there a better way of doing this?
>
> (defcustom org-cite-basic-follow-actions
>   '[["Open"
>     ("b" "bibliography entry" org-cite-basic-follow.open-bibliography)]
>    ["Copy"
>     ("d" "DOI" org-cite-basic-follow.copy-doi)]
>    ["Browse"
>     ("u" "url" org-cite-basic-follow.browse-url)]]
>   "Contents of the org-cite-basic-follow transient menu. 
>
> This can be customized directly using the customization 
> interface. Use setopt instead of setq if you change this option 
> in elisp, to ensure that the transient is rebuilt.

+1

> Further  actions can be added using transient-define-suffix."
>   :group 'org-cite
>   :type 'sexp
>   :set (lambda (option-name new-value)
>          (eval
>           `(transient-define-prefix org-cite-basic-follow (citation &optional prefix)
>              "Follow a citation reference.
>
> The contents of this transient menu is set in org-cite-basic-follow-actions."
>              ,new-value
>              (interactive)
>              (if (or org-cite-basic-follow-ask prefix)
>                  (transient-setup 'org-cite-basic-follow nil nil :scope (list citation prefix))
>                (org-cite-basic-goto citation prefix))))
>          (set-default-toplevel-value option-name new-value)))

This should work, but maybe Jonas can provide better ideas.

>>> And I can then for example add my own pdf-action like this:
>>>
>>> (transient-append-suffix 'org-cite-basic-follow "b"
>>>   '("p" "pdf"
>>>     (lambda (citation prefix)
>>>       (interactive (oref (transient-prefix-object) scope))
>>>       (find-file-other-window
>>>        (concat
>>>         tbc/projektet
>>>         "Referensartiklar"
>>>         "/"
>>>         (org-element-property :key citation)
>>>         ".pdf")))))
>>
>> It feels a bit too complex to demand knowledge of these transient
>> details (how to get the arglist) from users.
>>
>> I am wondering if we can somehow plug the existing commands passing the
>> arguments without any extra setup on the user side.
>
> The lambda form is much neater with your (transient-scope) suggestion:
> (lambda (citation prefix)
>         (interactive (transient-scope))
>         ...)
>
> Is this simple enough? I don't feel a macro would improve the
> situation.

It is not too bad, but what I really wanted is to reuse an existing
command/function without having to write a tailored interactive
statement. Again, I am hoping to get some insight from emacs-devel.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

[RFC] The best way to choose an "action" at point: context-menu-mode, transient, which-key or embark? (was: Fwd: Org-cite: Replace basic follow-processor with transient menu?)

[Ihor Radchenko]

TL;DR: We are in the process of designing a more unified selection
interface for Org mode and want to see if there is some way to unify
context-menu-mode, transient, which-key and embark together. The idea is
to (1) avoid too many customizations; (2) allow users to decide how to
choose between multiple options - by mouse, keyboard, and using
customizable UIs.

Dear all,

I have raised the topic of refactoring Org mode menu systems during
EmacsConf in https://emacsconf.org/2024/talks/org-update/
The initial idea was replacing the self-written menu code in Org with
built-in transient.el.

Later, during OrgMeetup a number of people raised concerns that
transient may sometimes be an overkill, and that some people may prefer
alternative UIs. In particular, embark and context-menu-mode were
mentioned.

(I am CCing the discussion participants and potentially interested
maintainers)

In Org mode (although not only in Org mode, looking at the success of
embark.el), we often have a UI model where users call an "action"
command (like org-ctrl-c-ctrl-c or org-open-at-point) followed by
interactive selection among multiple actions.

For example, org-open-at-point on a heading with multiple links inside
will raise a section buffer listing all the links - pressing a number
will open the corresponding link.

Another example (see the example patch below), which is a
work-in-progress patch for Org citation system, is "following" a
citation. To "follow" citation may mean multiple things including but
not limited to: (1) going to citation record in the bibliography file;
(2) following URL; (3) downloading .pdf file for a citation; etc.
 **The list of "follow" actions may be customized by users**

The general UI flow in these scenarios will be:

1. User calls "action" with cursor at certain syntax element
2. Action menu is displayed, showing the available actions/targets (dynamically built)
3. User selects the action/target

This UI flow can be implemented using context menus, which-key popups,
transient menus, and also using embark (where the way menu is displayed
can be customized).

All the 4 approaches represent different UI models with various
strengths and weaknesses:

- transient has a very flexible layout builder where the menu items can
  be arranged granularly, but intercepts the main loop disrupting
  certain keyboard-based workflows
- which-key does not stand on the way and integrates well into Emacs'
  key binding model, but provides little flexibility for menu layout
- embark stays in the middle between which-key and transient, making use
  of transient keymaps and allowing a custom menu renderer
- context-menu-mode provides mouse experience

I am wondering if we can work out some universal API to plug the
described action->menu->selection model into the UI that user prefers.

Tentatively, I am thinking about the following:

For a given Emacs "prefix" command (e.g. org-open-at-point), we define a
set of customizations:

1. List of possible actions: ((name1 . action1 props) (name2 . action2 ...) ...)
   PROPS is a plist defining extra properties like key-binding, display
   string, maybe something else to be used in the future.
2. Menu interface to use (transient, context-menu, embark, which-key)
3. Layout settings for the specific interfaces. For example, transient
   layout definition.

WDYT?

Best,
Ihor

Tor-björn Claesson <tclaesson@gmail.com> writes:

> From 7e9e0c64fbda2dcb67d8c8421d1c9923ca93e8b4 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
> From: =?UTF-8?q?Tor-bj=C3=B6rn=20Claesson?= <torb@barbar.claesson.fi>
> Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2024 11:09:16 +0200
> Subject: [PATCH] lisp/oc-basic.el: Transient menu for following citations
>
> * lisp/oc-basic.el (require 'transient): Pull in transient.
> (require 'org-element): Pull in org-element.
> (org-cite-basic-follow-ask): New customization option. should
> `org-cite-basic-follow' prompt the user for an action?
> (org-cite-basic-follow-actions): New customization option, that
> specifies the contents of the transient menu.
> (org-cite-basic--get-key): New function. Get citation key from
> citation or citation reference.
> (org-cite-basic-follow): New function.  Displays a menu asking how to
> follow a citation if `org-cite-basic-follow-ask' is
> non-nil. Otherwise, it retains the default behaviour of opening the
> bibliography entry. This can be inversed with a negative prefix argument.
> (org-cite-basic-follow--parse-suffix-specification and
> org-cite-basic-follow--setup): Helper functions for
> `org-cite-basic-follow'.
> (org-cite-register-processor 'basic): Update the basic citation
> processor to follow citations using `org-cite-basic-follow'.
>
> * etc/ORG_NEWS (Menu for choosing how to follow citations): Describe
> the new feature
> (New option ~org-cite-basic-follow-ask~): Describe this new
> customization option.
> (New option ~org-cite-basic-follow-actions~): Describe this new
> customization option, which specifies the layout of the
> `org-cite-basic-follow' transient menu.
>
> This change was co-authored with much support from Ihor Radchenko and
> Jonas Bernoulli, thanks!
> ---
>  etc/ORG-NEWS     |  22 +++++++++
>  lisp/oc-basic.el | 115 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++----
>  2 files changed, 128 insertions(+), 9 deletions(-)
>
> diff --git a/etc/ORG-NEWS b/etc/ORG-NEWS
> index de4f11b25..bacc38be2 100644
> --- a/etc/ORG-NEWS
> +++ b/etc/ORG-NEWS
> @@ -114,6 +114,15 @@ The keybindings in the repeat-maps can be changed by customizing
>  
>  See the new [[info:org#Repeating commands]["Repeating commands"]] section in Org mode manual.
>  
> +*** New transient menu when following citations
> +
> +Following citations with the org-cite-basic citation backend can now present a
> +transient menu. To show this menu, set ~org-cite-basic-follow-ask~ to non-nil. 
> +This behaviour can be reversed with a -4 prefix.
> +
> +The contents of this menu can be customized in
> +~org-cite-basic-follow-actions~.
> +
>  ** New and changed options
>  
>  # Chanes deadling with changing default values of customizations,
> @@ -158,6 +167,19 @@ English.  The default value is ~t~ as the CSL standard assumes that
>  English titles are specified in sentence-case but the bibtex
>  bibliography format requires them to be written in title-case.
>  
> +*** New option ~org-cite-basic-follow-ask~
> +
> +When this option is non-nil, following a citation with the basic citation
> +backend will present a transient menu with choices for how to follow the
> +citation.
> +If nil, following a citation will open its bibliography entry.
> +
> +This behaviour can be reversed with a -4 prefix argument.
> +
> +*** New option ~org-cite-basic-follow-actions~
> +
> +This option specifies the options presented by ~org-cite-basic-follow~.
> +
>  ** New functions and changes in function arguments
>  
>  # This also includes changes in function behavior from Elisp perspective.
> diff --git a/lisp/oc-basic.el b/lisp/oc-basic.el
> index e207a1997..fc55d3a32 100644
> --- a/lisp/oc-basic.el
> +++ b/lisp/oc-basic.el
> @@ -74,6 +74,8 @@
>  (require 'map)
>  (require 'oc)
>  (require 'seq)
> +(require 'transient)
> +(require 'org-element)
>  
>  (declare-function org-open-at-point "org" (&optional arg))
>  (declare-function org-open-file "org" (path &optional in-emacs line search))
> @@ -140,6 +142,39 @@
>    :type 'face
>    :safe #'facep)
>  
> +(defcustom org-cite-basic-follow-ask nil
> +  "Should `org-cite-basic' ask how to follow citations?
> +
> +When this option is nil, `org-cite-basic-follow' opens the bibliography entry. 
> +Otherwise, `org-cite-basic-follow' will display a transient menu prompting the 
> +user for an action.  The contents of this menu can be customized in 
> +`org-cite-basic-follow-actions'."
> +  :group 'org-cite
> +  :package-version '(Org . "9.8")
> +  :type 'boolean)
> +
> +(defcustom org-cite-basic-follow-actions
> +  '[["Open"
> +     ("b" "bibliography entry" (org-cite-basic-goto !citation !prefix))]
> +    ["Copy"
> +     ("d" "DOI"
> +      (kill-new
> +       (org-cite-basic--get-field
> +        'doi
> +        (org-cite-basic--get-key !citation))))]]
> +  "Actions in the `org-cite-basic-follow' transient menu.
> +
> +This option uses the same syntax as `transient-define-prefix', see Info node
> +`(transient)Binding Suffix and Infix Commands'.  In addition, it is possible 
> +to specify a function call for the COMMAND part, where !citation (the citation
> +object to be followed) and !prefix (any prefix argument to the follower) can be
> +used to access those values. For example:
> +(org-cite-basic-goto !citation !prefix) or
> +(lambda () (message (org-element-property :key !citation)))"
> +  :group 'org-cite
> +  :package-version '(Org . "9.8")
> +  :type 'sexp)
> +
>  \f
>  ;;; Internal variables
>  (defvar org-cite-basic--bibliography-cache nil
> @@ -326,6 +361,16 @@ INFO is the export state, as a property list."
>                  (map-keys entries))
>                (org-cite-basic--parse-bibliography)))
>  
> +(defun org-cite-basic--get-key (citation-or-citation-reference)
> +  "Return citation key for CITATION."
> +  (if (org-element-type-p citation-or-citation-reference 'citation-reference)
> +      (org-element-property :key citation-or-citation-reference)
> +    (pcase (org-cite-get-references citation-or-citation-reference t)
> +      (`(,key) key)
> +      (keys
> +       (or (completing-read "Select citation key: " keys nil t)
> +           (user-error "Aborted"))))))
> +
>  (defun org-cite-basic--get-entry (key &optional info)
>    "Return BibTeX entry for KEY, as an association list.
>  When non-nil, INFO is the export state, as a property list."
> @@ -805,14 +850,7 @@ export state, as a property list."
>  When DATUM is a citation reference, open bibliography entry referencing
>  the citation key.  Otherwise, select which key to follow among all keys
>  present in the citation."
> -  (let* ((key
> -          (if (org-element-type-p datum 'citation-reference)
> -              (org-element-property :key datum)
> -            (pcase (org-cite-get-references datum t)
> -              (`(,key) key)
> -              (keys
> -               (or (completing-read "Select citation key: " keys nil t)
> -                   (user-error "Aborted"))))))
> +  (let* ((key (org-cite-basic--get-key datum))
>           (file
>            (pcase (seq-find (pcase-lambda (`(,_ . ,entries))
>                               (gethash key entries))
> @@ -832,6 +870,65 @@ present in the citation."
>         (bibtex-set-dialect)
>         (bibtex-search-entry key)))))
>  
> +(transient-define-prefix org-cite-basic-follow (citation-object &optional prefix)
> +  "Follow citation.
> +
> +If `org-cite-basic-follow-ask' is non-nil, this transient will present
> +a menu prompting the user for an action. 
> +Otherwise, it will open the bibliography entry for the citation at point.  
> +This behaviour is inverted when the transient is called with a -4 prefix
> +argument.
> +
> +The contents of the menu are defined in the variable
> +`org-cite-basic-follow-actions'."
> +  [:class transient-columns
> +          :setup-children org-cite-basic-follow--setup
> +          :pad-keys t]
> +  (interactive
> +    (list (let ((obj (org-element-context)))
> +           (pcase (org-element-type obj)
> +             ((or 'citation 'citation-reference) obj)
> +             (_ (user-error "No citation at point"))))))
> +  (if (xor org-cite-basic-follow-ask
> +           (equal prefix '(-4)))
> +      (transient-setup 'org-cite-basic-follow nil nil
> +                       :scope (list :citation citation-object :prefix prefix))
> +    (org-cite-basic-goto citation-object prefix)))
> +
> +(defun org-cite-basic-follow--parse-suffix-specification (specification)
> +  "Handle special syntax for `org-cite-basic-follow-actions'."
> +  (pcase specification
> +    (`(,key ,desc (lambda ,args . ,fn-args) . ,other)
> +     `(,key ,desc
> +            (lambda ,args
> +              ,(unless (and (listp (car fn-args))
> +                            (equal (caar fn-args)
> +                                   'interactive))
> +                 '(interactive))
> +              (let ((!citation (plist-get (transient-scope) :citation))
> +                    (!prefix (plist-get (transient-scope) :prefix)))
> +                ,@fn-args))
> +            ,@other))
> +    (`(,key ,desc (,fn . ,fn-args) . ,other)
> +     `(,key ,desc
> +            (lambda ()
> +	      (interactive)
> +              (let ((!citation (plist-get (transient-scope) :citation))
> +                    (!prefix (plist-get (transient-scope) :prefix)))
> +	        (,fn ,@fn-args)))
> +            ,@other))
> +    (other other)))
> +
> +(defun org-cite-basic-follow--setup (_)
> +  "Update `org-cite-basic-follow' when `org-cite-basic-follow-actions' changes."
> +  (transient-parse-suffixes
> +   'org-cite-basic-follow
> +   (cl-map 'vector
> +           (lambda (group)
> +             (cl-map 'vector #'org-cite-basic-follow--parse-suffix-specification
> +                     group))
> +           org-cite-basic-follow-actions)))
> +
>  \f
>  ;;; "Insert" capability
>  (defun org-cite-basic--complete-style (_)
> @@ -920,7 +1017,7 @@ Raise an error when no bibliography is set in the buffer."
>    :activate #'org-cite-basic-activate
>    :export-citation #'org-cite-basic-export-citation
>    :export-bibliography #'org-cite-basic-export-bibliography
> -  :follow #'org-cite-basic-goto
> +  :follow #'org-cite-basic-follow
>    :insert (org-cite-make-insert-processor #'org-cite-basic--complete-key
>                                            #'org-cite-basic--complete-style)
>    :cite-styles
> -- 
> 2.46.0
>

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode maintainer,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: [RFC] The best way to choose an "action" at point: context-menu-mode, transient, which-key or embark?

[Gabriel Santos]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 6022 bytes --]

Greetings,

I'll go through the examples found on this e-mail and
suggest the menu command I find best for the proposed
scenarios.

Below is how I think these options could be used.

context-menu-mode
      No particular target, should mostly be used for actions on
      the whole buffer or on a region, or all particular elements
      defined.

      Example: Org -> Headings -> Demote Headings

transient
      Also no particular target, but should be used for commands that
      would require a menu for interaction, such as exporting and capturing.

      Example 1: org-export-*dispatch* -> transient menu
      Example 2: org-capture -> transient menu
      Example 3: org-attach -> transient menu

which-key
      On a target, list actions that could be performed on it.

embark
      Can be used to replace which-key in customization.

      But, despite saying this, I have it configured to use which-key as its menu.

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> I have raised the topic of refactoring Org mode menu systems during
> EmacsConf in <https://emacsconf.org/2024/talks/org-update/>

I saw the talk live, really excited for the future of Org!

> The initial idea was replacing the self-written menu code in Org with
> built-in transient.el.
>
> Later, during OrgMeetup a number of people raised concerns that
> transient may sometimes be an overkill, and that some people may prefer
> alternative UIs. In particular, embark and context-menu-mode were
> mentioned.

Personally, I'd prefer for built-in packages/functionality to be considered first.

The consideration for context-menu for me is particularly intriguing, as there's
a lot of functionality already included in Org's context menu.

> (I am CCing the discussion participants and potentially interested
> maintainers)

Hope to see their responses to this.

I'm just a common user, so my opinions should be taken with a grain of salt.

> In Org mode (although not only in Org mode, looking at the success of
> embark.el), we often have a UI model where users call an "action"
> command (like org-ctrl-c-ctrl-c or org-open-at-point) followed by
> interactive selection among multiple actions.

I don't often use org-ctrl-c-ctrl-c, but now that I've seen the interaction
menu for properties as an example, I'd say the best option for it would be
which-key, as it's a simpler menu.

> For example, org-open-at-point on a heading with multiple links inside
> will raise a section buffer listing all the links - pressing a number
> will open the corresponding link.

I'd consider which-key again for this.

> Another example (see the example patch below), which is a
> work-in-progress patch for Org citation system, is "following" a
> citation. To "follow" citation may mean multiple things including but
> not limited to: (1) going to citation record in the bibliography file;
> (2) following URL; (3) downloading .pdf file for a citation; etc.
>  **The list of "follow" actions may be customized by users**

This is similar to the functions available in the following package:

<https://github.com/emacs-citar/citar>

It also allows for opening the bibliography, links, notes, and files
connected to the citation.

I use it with embark:

<https://github.com/emacs-citar/citar/blob/main/citar-embark.el>

> The general UI flow in these scenarios will be:
>
> 1. User calls "action" with cursor at certain syntax element
> 2. Action menu is displayed, showing the available actions/targets (dynamically built)
> 3. User selects the action/target

I'm not sure what the best option would be for displaying targets, but which-key
should be able to cover most cases that would require "simpler" menus for actions.

I'd also add in that it could be considered over transient if its dynamically built.
I tend to associate transient with "static" options.

> This UI flow can be implemented using context menus, which-key popups,
> transient menus, and also using embark (where the way menu is displayed
> can be customized).
>
> All the 4 approaches represent different UI models with various
> strengths and weaknesses:
>
> - transient has a very flexible layout builder where the menu items can
>   be arranged granularly, but intercepts the main loop disrupting
>   certain keyboard-based workflows
> - which-key does not stand on the way and integrates well into Emacs'
>   key binding model, but provides little flexibility for menu layout

It has options for setting the pop-up type and position. Could this help with
flexibility?

> - embark stays in the middle between which-key and transient, making use
>   of transient keymaps and allowing a custom menu renderer
> - context-menu-mode provides mouse experience
>
> I am wondering if we can work out some universal API to plug the
> described action->menu->selection model into the UI that user prefers.

I'd say that this is the best options out of all of them, but, as you said:

> "I am wondering if we can work out [...]"

This would require considerable work.

> Tentatively, I am thinking about the following:
>
> For a given Emacs "prefix" command (e.g. org-open-at-point), we define a
> set of customizations:
>
> 1. List of possible actions: ((name1 . action1 props) (name2 . action2 ...) ...)
>    PROPS is a plist defining extra properties like key-binding, display
>    string, maybe something else to be used in the future.
> 2. Menu interface to use (transient, context-menu, embark, which-key)
> 3. Layout settings for the specific interfaces. For example, transient
>    layout definition.
>
> WDYT?
>
> Best,
> Ihor

On this described state (list of actions), which-key would be the
best option according to my definition.

But, on the current state of org-open-at-point (shows more targets),
as I commented previously, there's no menu that I associate with:

"Act on target, display a list of other targets."

Maybe context-menu would be the closest one, but I wouldn't consider
which-key or embark, these are more related to functions.

Regards,

--
*Gabriel Santos*

Re: [RFC] The best way to choose an "action" at point: context-menu-mode, transient, which-key or embark?

[Suhail Singh]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> Tentatively, I am thinking about the following:
>
> For a given Emacs "prefix" command (e.g. org-open-at-point), we define a
> set of customizations:
>
> 1. List of possible actions: ((name1 . action1 props) (name2 . action2 ...) ...)
>    PROPS is a plist defining extra properties like key-binding, display
>    string, maybe something else to be used in the future.
> 2. Menu interface to use (transient, context-menu, embark, which-key)
> 3. Layout settings for the specific interfaces. For example, transient
>    layout definition.
>
> WDYT?

By "display string" do you mean a description of the action?  Or would
that be additional?

Hopefully, the description of each action will be a first-class member
of the "List of possible actions".  Or is the intent that the
description be taken from the form representing an action (e.g. a defun,
a lambda etc).

-- 
Suhail

Re: [RFC] The best way to choose an "action" at point: context-menu-mode, transient, which-key or embark? (was: Fwd: Org-cite: Replace basic follow-processor with transient menu?)

[Panayotis Manganaris]

Hello. I'm very much an elisp amateur, but one of my main motives for
learning has been to make use of emacs' many beautiful UI systems.

Therefore, I'll provide my comments from a designer perspective and
avoid implementation detail.

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> TL;DR: We are in the process of designing a more unified selection
> interface for Org mode

Thanks to Tor-björn, Jonas, Ihor, and everyone else for this work. I've
learned much by following this thread.

> a number of people raised concerns that transient may sometimes be an
> overkill

I agree with others that transient is overkill for most of the menus in
org-mode. A counter argument, going by the patches exchanged here, might
be that transient menus are a clean and scalable approach.

I've not tried the in-dev transient follow processor, but I imagine it
is similar to the old org-ref (John Kitchin) hydra menu. I used org-ref
for years, and enjoyed how its menu united many features, including
- a system analogous to org-cite follow processors for navigating to sources/notes
- a system akin to reftex-mode for org
- a system for downloading new references and making new bibliography entries

With this level of complexity, a transient menu seems like the modern
weapon of choice for a similar feature set. Only, wait, I stopped using
org-ref.

Long story short, I concluded that treating org-mode like a nexus for
these intertwined features was, at least, encouraging my bad habit of
treating org-mode as an "everything app."

I have since delegated the task of populating my personal library to a
dedicated reference manager. I started using latex-mode and reftex to
write papers, thus gaining more typesetting control and making version
management much easier. I still use org to take notes, but now enjoy a
much more stable and focused configuration.

I tell this story as an (anecdotal) case study for how a powerful menu
can be less productive in the long run. Org-ref's hydra menu is not to
blame for my bad decisions but, at least in-part, I used it (and even
extended it) because a greater man put it there.

Scalable design is an invitation to scale. Perhaps the wise know better.
Anyway, the simple tasks of navigating from a citation link to a copy of
the original document, its URL, or an associated note is achievable with
a completing-read (helm, counsel, vertico, etc.) interface.

Transient is overkill.

> This UI flow can be implemented using context menus [...] embark

I like org's context menus, but I like embark better. I do think it
would be very generous of org to delegate its own contextual actions to
embark if so configured.

I'll elaborate:

As is, I like to run org-babel code block functions through embark, I
only wish there were more of them to run. I find this to be far superior
in every way to binding equivalent key chords for the mode.

Also, for me, embark-bindings and embark-prefix-help-command have
completely replaced which-key for discovering key bindings on-the-fly.

> I am wondering if we can work out some universal API to plug the
> described action->menu->selection model into the UI that user prefers.

I support this idea in principle.

> 1. List of possible actions: ((name1 . action1 props) (name2 . action2 ...) ...)
>    PROPS is a plist defining extra properties like key-binding, display
>    string, maybe something else to be used in the future.

I would focus on associating just enough metadata with functions to
enable using them with embark. I really have no idea what the best way
to do this is. This seems to be the biggest missing piece.

Maybe in the short term we just crowd-source some embark configuration
on WORG.

Menus should of course be useful without embark. If the goal here is to
deprecate many of org's ad-hoc interfaces, I think the natural default
replacement for most is completing-read. I may be completely wrong.

> 2. Menu interface to use (transient, context-menu, embark, which-key)

It seems like Tor-björn and Ihor have already laid the groundwork for
using transient in this way. So, I'll just say bravo. Regardless of my
opinion on transient overuse, it looks like great work.

On the other hand, e.g. if the org export dispatch menu isn't transient,
it should be. Seems obvious to me.

> 3. Layout settings for the specific interfaces. For example, transient
>    layout definition.

It is important to avoid making more org-mode-specific UI abstractions.
Whatever the solution, it is important that the UI implementations
tapped to take over help share the maintenance burden.

In this way, I reckon most interface customization can be done in hooks.

> WDYT?

Ideally org-mode uses established APIs rather than making another.

Thanks for reading, and thanks for the chance to contribute.

Re: [RFC] The best way to choose an "action" at point: context-menu-mode, transient, which-key or embark?

[Ihor Radchenko]

Gabriel Santos <gabrielsantosdesouza@disroot.org> writes:

> context-menu-mode
>       No particular target, should mostly be used for actions on
>       the whole buffer or on a region, or all particular elements
>       defined.
>
>       Example: Org -> Headings -> Demote Headings
> ...
> Personally, I'd prefer for built-in packages/functionality to be considered first.

We will definitely try to support built-ins first and foremost.
I mentioned embark as an example of alternative UI.
Also, embark might be a candidate for upstreaming.

> The consideration for context-menu for me is particularly intriguing, as there's
> a lot of functionality already included in Org's context menu.

This is not right. I think you are confusing ordinary menu bar and
context menu. Context menu is "right click" menu that will display
different items depending on where you click. Org mode currently does
not have context-menu-mode integration (we should fix this deficiency)

> I don't often use org-ctrl-c-ctrl-c, but now that I've seen the interaction
> menu for properties as an example, I'd say the best option for it would be
> which-key, as it's a simpler menu.

My conclusion so far is that there is no "best" for every user. We
should ideally support user-customized menu UI. The main question is how
to do it.

>> This UI flow can be implemented using context menus, which-key popups,
>> transient menus, and also using embark (where the way menu is displayed
>> can be customized).
>>
>> All the 4 approaches represent different UI models with various
>> strengths and weaknesses:
> ...
> It has options for setting the pop-up type and position. Could this help with
> flexibility?

May you elaborate what "it" refers to?

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode maintainer,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: [RFC] The best way to choose an "action" at point: context-menu-mode, transient, which-key or embark?

[Ihor Radchenko]

Suhail Singh <suhailsingh247@gmail.com> writes:

>> For a given Emacs "prefix" command (e.g. org-open-at-point), we define a
>> set of customizations:
>>
>> 1. List of possible actions: ((name1 . action1 props) (name2 . action2 ...) ...)
>>    PROPS is a plist defining extra properties like key-binding, display
>>    string, maybe something else to be used in the future.
>> 2. Menu interface to use (transient, context-menu, embark, which-key)
>> 3. Layout settings for the specific interfaces. For example, transient
>>    layout definition.
>
> By "display string" do you mean a description of the action?  Or would
> that be additional?

I mean some way to define how the action should be displayed in the
menu. It may be a full string or just a description to be appended to
the action name, or something else.

> Hopefully, the description of each action will be a first-class member
> of the "List of possible actions".  Or is the intent that the
> description be taken from the form representing an action (e.g. a defun,
> a lambda etc).

Using a docstring sounds like a good idea. But it is a bit early to
decide these details. I'd like to discuss the more general design first.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode maintainer,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: [RFC] The best way to choose an "action" at point: context-menu-mode, transient, which-key or embark? (was: Fwd: Org-cite: Replace basic follow-processor with transient menu?)

[Ihor Radchenko]

Panayotis Manganaris <panos.manganaris@gmail.com> writes:

> Menus should of course be useful without embark. If the goal here is to
> deprecate many of org's ad-hoc interfaces, I think the natural default
> replacement for most is completing-read. I may be completely wrong.

For the existing interfaces, we are not going to change things in
incompatible ways. The idea is to keep the existing menus working as
similarly as possible compared to the current ad-hoc menus.
So, no, we are not going to replace things with completing-read.
Not by default.

But what I hope to see is a way for users to customize the UI to their
preference. Without touching the defaults.

> On the other hand, e.g. if the org export dispatch menu isn't transient,
> it should be. Seems obvious to me.

Yes. That's where we will have to use transient.
This discussion mostly concerns simpler cases when user needs to choose
from a list.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode maintainer,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: [RFC] The best way to choose an "action" at point: context-menu-mode, transient, which-key or embark?

[Philip Kaludercic]

Can I please be removed from the CCs in this thread?

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> Psionic K <psionik@positron.solutions> writes:
>
>>> intercepts the main loop
>
>> This is optional, per transient menu (prefix) and the commands within it.
>> A common technique, used by magit and others, is to have entry point
>> commands in the regular keymap so that many commands can be started without
>> traversing several menus.  If you want normal un-shadowed bindings active
>> at the same time, the prefix has a slot called `transient-non-suffix' that
>> is similar to the `:suppress' option in keymaps or setting a `t'
>> `undefined' binding in a keymap.  However the results of mixing self-insert
>> and modal or modal and another modal are generally bad.
>
> Thanks for the info!
> So, we can have something like
>
> :transient-non-suffix 'leave
>
> and then pressing something that is not bound to a suffix or infix will
> run the parent keymap command, automatically leaving transient state.
>
>> - Normalizing how to obtain arguments when being called independently as an
>> interactive command versus being called as a Transient suffix
>
> I think it is addressed in the example patch I shared. There, we pass
> around the original function arguments via macro expansion (!arg-name)
>
>   ["Open" ("b" "bibliography entry" (org-cite-basic-goto !citation !prefix))]
>
>> In the short term, to punch the first two problems in the face, override
>> the `:setup-children' method.  If you know what keymap you are borrowing
>> bindings from, you can synchronize it at display time.
>
> This is also partially solved. We do use :setup-children, although the
> initial implementation simply reads user customization into menu layout.
>
> I believe that we can read a keymap in similar way and generate
> transient layout automatically.
>
>> What I fear is a system like org-speed-keys which relies on an override of
>> `org-self-insert' and is yet another orthogonal system.  I much prefer the
>> Lispy style of integration, which uses a keymap.  Using keymaps, even if
>> they are not active, to generate transient key bindings via :setup-children
>> is the best way to have certain integration with other Emacs tools.
>
> May you please elaborate?

Re: [RFC] The best way to choose an "action" at point: context-menu-mode, transient, which-key or embark?

[indieterminacy]

Hello Ihor,

On 2024-12-13 19:41, Ihor Radchenko wrote:
> TL;DR: We are in the process of designing a more unified selection
> interface for Org mode and want to see if there is some way to unify
> context-menu-mode, transient, which-key and embark together. The idea 
> is
> to (1) avoid too many customizations; (2) allow users to decide how to
> choose between multiple options - by mouse, keyboard, and using
> customizable UIs.
> ...

I would consider an `actions -> menu` functionality to be something 
which should be a distinct tool,
albeit heavily configured to suit Orgmode functionality.
I think its great how Transient was able to emerge from Magit's 
activities and its clearly providing opportunities for scaling the 
utility.

If I may widen the topic a little, your RFC could be an opportunity to 
examine the overlaps between Orgmode and Hyperbole.

For instance, the use of implicit buttons could be examined:
https://www.gnu.org/software/hyperbole/man/hyperbole.html#Implicit-Buttons

I reckon what you are proposing (greater fluency and flow for menus 
dependent on context) could benefit Hyperbole's functionality too (the 
action utility for that environment seems more focused on one action 
rather than prompting a selection of actions).

Ive CC'd Robert Weiner (who leads Hyperbole), incase that is of use.

Kind regards,


Jonathan McHugh

Re: [RFC] The best way to choose an "action" at point: context-menu-mode, transient, which-key or embark?

[Gabriel Santos]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1658 bytes --]

>> The consideration for context-menu for me is particularly intriguing, as there's
>> a lot of functionality already included in Org's context menu.
>
> This is not right. I think you are confusing ordinary menu bar and
> context menu. Context menu is "right click" menu that will display
> different items depending on where you click. Org mode currently does
> not have context-menu-mode integration (we should fix this deficiency)

Maybe it's some third-party package I'm using, but right-cliking on an Org
buffer gives me a lot of options:

<https://0x0.st/XF1y.png>

>> I don't often use org-ctrl-c-ctrl-c, but now that I've seen the interaction
>> menu for properties as an example, I'd say the best option for it would be
>> which-key, as it's a simpler menu.
>
> My conclusion so far is that there is no "best" for every user. We
> should ideally support user-customized menu UI. The main question is how
> to do it.

I also agree with this conclusion. Hope others can contribute with
suggestions of how to go about it.

>>> This UI flow can be implemented using context menus, which-key popups,
>>> transient menus, and also using embark (where the way menu is displayed
>>> can be customized).
>>>
>>> All the 4 approaches represent different UI models with various
>>> strengths and weaknesses:
>> ...
>> It has options for setting the pop-up type and position. Could this help with
>> flexibility?
>
> May you elaborate what "it" refers to?

Sorry, seems I forgot to clarify. "It" in this context was referring to which-key.

It has the following variables for altering (window) display:

- which-key-popup-type
- which-key-side-window-location

Re: [RFC] The best way to choose an "action" at point: context-menu-mode, transient, which-key or embark?

[Ihor Radchenko]

Gabriel Santos <gabrielsantosdesouza@disroot.org> writes:

> Maybe it's some third-party package I'm using, but right-cliking on an Org
> buffer gives me a lot of options:
>
> <https://0x0.st/XF1y.png>

This is simply a copy of the top-level menu. You would see the same if
you enable the menu bar. No "context" is considered in this case.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode maintainer,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: [RFC] The best way to choose an "action" at point: context-menu-mode, transient, which-key or embark?

[Suhail Singh]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

>> Hopefully, the description of each action will be a first-class member
>> of the "List of possible actions".  Or is the intent that the
>> description be taken from the form representing an action (e.g. a defun,
>> a lambda etc).
>
> Using a docstring sounds like a good idea. But it is a bit early to
> decide these details. I'd like to discuss the more general design first.

I agree that it may be premature to think about implementation details
of how docstrings are stored etc.  However, I would like to ensure that
any discussion of the design of ways-to-choose-an-action-at-point
include self-documentation and self-discovery in the desiderata.

Perhaps this goes without saying, in which case please ignore this
message.  However, it's too important to be left to chance.

-- 
Suhail

Re: [RFC] The best way to choose an "action" at point: context-menu-mode, transient, which-key or embark?

[Juri Linkov]

> 1. List of possible actions: ((name1 . action1 props) (name2 . action2 ...) ...)
>    PROPS is a plist defining extra properties like key-binding, display
>    string, maybe something else to be used in the future.
> 2. Menu interface to use (transient, context-menu, embark, which-key)

This looks like the best design.  Any part of the org buffer could have
text properties with a list of its available actions.  Such a property
could be similar to 'context-menu-functions' handled by 'context-menu-map'.
But since it will be a plain generic list, it could be transformed to any
menu interface such as transient, context-menu, etc.

To transform it to context-menu, org-mode should provide a function
like 'context-menu-minor' that will create a corresponding menu
that will be added as a submenu of the default context menu.

Such integration with existing menus would be better than the current
implementation of context menus in org-mouse-context-menu that completely
replaces the context menu with its own.

Re: [RFC] The best way to choose an "action" at point: context-menu-mode, transient, which-key or embark?

[Ihor Radchenko]

Juri Linkov <juri@linkov.net> writes:

>> 1. List of possible actions: ((name1 . action1 props) (name2 . action2 ...) ...)
>>    PROPS is a plist defining extra properties like key-binding, display
>>    string, maybe something else to be used in the future.
>> 2. Menu interface to use (transient, context-menu, embark, which-key)
>
> This looks like the best design.  Any part of the org buffer could have
> text properties with a list of its available actions.  Such a property
> could be similar to 'context-menu-functions' handled by 'context-menu-map'.
> But since it will be a plain generic list, it could be transformed to any
> menu interface such as transient, context-menu, etc.

I am a bit lost.
Maybe I did not describe the use cases I had in mind well.

What I have in mind is a menu UI for various commands:
1. org-open-at-point (one set of actions)
2. org-ctrl-c-ctrl-c (another set of action)
3. some other command
4. ...

Then, "actions" will be various options a given command can do.

In such scenario, the usefulness of text properties is elusive to me.
I'd rather link the menu items to a command, not to place in buffer.

> To transform it to context-menu, org-mode should provide a function
> like 'context-menu-minor' that will create a corresponding menu
> that will be added as a submenu of the default context menu.
>
> Such integration with existing menus would be better than the current
> implementation of context menus in org-mouse-context-menu that completely
> replaces the context menu with its own.

What do you mean by "default context menu"?

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode maintainer,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: [RFC] The best way to choose an "action" at point: context-menu-mode, transient, which-key or embark?

[Kierin Bell]

Hi Ihor,

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> TL;DR: We are in the process of designing a more unified selection
> interface for Org mode and want to see if there is some way to unify
> context-menu-mode, transient, which-key and embark together. The idea
> is to (1) avoid too many customizations; (2) allow users to decide how
> to choose between multiple options - by mouse, keyboard, and using
> customizable UIs.

I think that the built-in Emacs thingatpt.el should not be overlooked
here.

Instead of implementing an entire system specific to Org, imagine a
generic action-at-point interface that works on "things" from
thingatpt.el. For the various targets, Org could add new "providers" to
`thing-at-point-provider-alist', `forward-thing-provider-alist', and
`bounds-of-thing-at-point-provider-alist'. [ Org actually does already
register its own 'url' provider for links. ]

Then, Org could implement a number of action selection interfaces that
act on the various classes of "thing". An exemplary package would be
Philip Kaludercic's great =do-at-point= package, which provides a simple
action selection menu for the thing-at-point using
`read-multiple-choice', which I find elegant and intuitive.[1]

I have gone as far as implementing a 'heading' provider for Org and
`outline-mode' (for use with =do-at-point.el=). I don't see any reason
why Org couldn't define a 'citation' provider, a 'source-block'
provider, etc.

The only downside that I have found with adding lots of thingatpt.el
providers is that it can be difficult to write providers efficient
enough for `forward-thing' in particular
(`forward-thing-provider-alist').

I may also be misunderstanding the proposed interface. For example,
instead of a generic interface for acting on a single thing at point,
maybe you are describing more of an interface for associating commands
with multiple potential targets that must be located (e.g., in a
subtree), which are then each associated with actions.

Even if that's the case, there is a good case for implementing
thingatpt.el providers for the targets, so that users could bring our
own action-at-point packages/interfaces. [ I would be willing to help
write some of those providers. ] And if thingatpt.el isn't generalized
or fast enough, then there is a case for creating a new, more flexible
/de facto/ library like this for Emacs.


[1] https://codeberg.org/pkal/do-at-point

Thanks,
Kierin

Re: [RFC] The best way to choose an "action" at point: context-menu-mode, transient, which-key or embark? (was: Fwd: Org-cite: Replace basic follow-processor with transient menu?)

[Samuel Wales]

a couple of quick and somewhat obvious comments.  i use VERY large
fonts with a maximized gui emacs [vt / maximized urxvt  when needed],
still resulting in, throughout emacs, often, a smaller number of
screen lines or columns than content, even with my usual one window
per frame.  most org menus respect this and can be scrolled or
tweaked.  just wanted compatibility to be in the specs.  especially,
to make sure no functionality is unreachable, but also where possible
to modify column numbers / fill to look ok.  i am slowly trying
transient in gptel and still getting used to it.

next, i use org-mouse and think it's wonderful.  generally, when using
a computer, i use mouse-only or kb-only, but not the combination.
mouseability was mentioned, but just wanted, where possible, the
ability to do most things using only mouse in addition to only kb.
and, where possible, org-mouse compatibility or replacement, whichever
is deemed best.

On Sat, Dec 14, 2024 at 3:08 AM Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> wrote:
>
> Panayotis Manganaris <panos.manganaris@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > Menus should of course be useful without embark. If the goal here is to
> > deprecate many of org's ad-hoc interfaces, I think the natural default
> > replacement for most is completing-read. I may be completely wrong.
>
> For the existing interfaces, we are not going to change things in
> incompatible ways. The idea is to keep the existing menus working as
> similarly as possible compared to the current ad-hoc menus.
> So, no, we are not going to replace things with completing-read.
> Not by default.
>
> But what I hope to see is a way for users to customize the UI to their
> preference. Without touching the defaults.
>
> > On the other hand, e.g. if the org export dispatch menu isn't transient,
> > it should be. Seems obvious to me.
>
> Yes. That's where we will have to use transient.
> This discussion mostly concerns simpler cases when user needs to choose
> from a list.
>
> --
> Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
> Org mode maintainer,
> Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
> Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
> or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
>


-- 
The Kafka Pandemic

A blog about science, health, human rights, and misopathy:
https://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com

Re: [RFC] The best way to choose an "action" at point: context-menu-mode, transient, which-key or embark?

[Juri Linkov]

>>> 1. List of possible actions: ((name1 . action1 props) (name2 . action2 ...) ...)
>>>    PROPS is a plist defining extra properties like key-binding, display
>>>    string, maybe something else to be used in the future.
>>> 2. Menu interface to use (transient, context-menu, embark, which-key)
>>
>> This looks like the best design.  Any part of the org buffer could have
>> text properties with a list of its available actions.  Such a property
>> could be similar to 'context-menu-functions' handled by 'context-menu-map'.
>> But since it will be a plain generic list, it could be transformed to any
>> menu interface such as transient, context-menu, etc.
>
> I am a bit lost.
> Maybe I did not describe the use cases I had in mind well.
>
> What I have in mind is a menu UI for various commands:
> 1. org-open-at-point (one set of actions)
> 2. org-ctrl-c-ctrl-c (another set of action)
> 3. some other command
> 4. ...
>
> Then, "actions" will be various options a given command can do.
>
> In such scenario, the usefulness of text properties is elusive to me.
> I'd rather link the menu items to a command, not to place in buffer.

Indeed, in this case text properties are not needed.
Then you can use something like the buffer-local variable with the
same name 'context-menu-functions' (handled in 'context-menu-map').
The main point is that these functions return a menu.

But instead of a menu, an org function could return
a more high-level data structure like
((name1 . action1 props) (name2 . action2 ...) ...)

IOW, this means adding an abstraction layer on top of the existing
user interfaces such as transient and context-menu.

>> To transform it to context-menu, org-mode should provide a function
>> like 'context-menu-minor' that will create a corresponding menu
>> that will be added as a submenu of the default context menu.
>>
>> Such integration with existing menus would be better than the current
>> implementation of context menus in org-mouse-context-menu that completely
>> replaces the context menu with its own.
>
> What do you mean by "default context menu"?

The default context menu is the menu constructed from many different
context-menu functions.  Some of them add Undo/Redo entries,
some add Select/Copy/Paste, some add Global submenus, etc.

I meant to keep all these existing menu items, and also append
the submenu items returned by Org-mode.

Re: [RFC] The best way to choose an "action" at point: context-menu-mode, transient, which-key or embark? (was: Fwd: Org-cite: Replace basic follow-processor with transient menu?)

[Ihor Radchenko]

Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> writes:

> a couple of quick and somewhat obvious comments.  i use VERY large
> fonts with a maximized gui emacs [vt / maximized urxvt  when needed],
> still resulting in, throughout emacs, often, a smaller number of
> screen lines or columns than content, even with my usual one window
> per frame.  most org menus respect this and can be scrolled or
> tweaked.  just wanted compatibility to be in the specs.  especially,
> to make sure no functionality is unreachable, but also where possible
> to modify column numbers / fill to look ok.  i am slowly trying
> transient in gptel and still getting used to it.

Thanks for the important input!
Does transient look fine on your screen? If yes, we should not have a
problem.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode maintainer,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: [RFC] The best way to choose an "action" at point: context-menu-mode, transient, which-key or embark?

[Ihor Radchenko]

Juri Linkov <juri@linkov.net> writes:

> Then you can use something like the buffer-local variable with the
> same name 'context-menu-functions' (handled in 'context-menu-map').
> The main point is that these functions return a menu.
>
> But instead of a menu, an org function could return
> a more high-level data structure like
> ((name1 . action1 props) (name2 . action2 ...) ...)
>
> IOW, this means adding an abstraction layer on top of the existing
> user interfaces such as transient and context-menu.

Yeah. I am not 100% sure if adding an abstraction layer is a great idea.
Another idea I was considering is similar to what you propose: have some
kind of hook like `context-menu-functions', but accepting an extra
argument - menu type (context menu, transient, which-key, etc.). Then, it
should produce appropriate menu spec.

However, this will require Elisp to customize things. Also not ideal.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode maintainer,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: [RFC] The best way to choose an "action" at point: context-menu-mode, transient, which-key or embark? (was: Fwd: Org-cite: Replace basic follow-processor with transient menu?)

[Samuel Wales]

thanks for interest.

the transient menu i am trying uses more character columns and
lines than window (c-u m-x gptel-send).  transient's solution
does not work well for me.

1) wrapping
   - 3 text columns.  rightmost text column (header: "Response
     to") has lines that wrap at rhs (not word) to lhs (not
     beginning of that text column), putting lines between items
     in first text column.
   - (for clarity: by rhs and lhs, i mean where text goes, at
     smallest usable font, maximized gui frame, no wm
     decoration, one window in frame, 2 fringes)
   - BEST SOLUTION FOR ME: wrap at word boundaries, /within each
     text column/, as is done when one exports org tables to
     html
2) vertical scrolling
   - BEST SOLUTION FOR ME: SPC DEL, as is done in org export
     menu
     - in transient, SPC and DEL make echo area say ? for help.
       ? makes the message go away but nothing else changes.
       another ?  brings up the help for function gptel-send.
       i'd want scrolling.
     - transient is vertically scrollable using up down arrows
       and c-v m-v, but those are harder on rsi and harder to
       locate on my kb than SPC DEL
   - i did not notice that there are lines below window.  if
     there isn't an indicator, BEST LOCATION FOR ME: left fringe
     in cases where fringe exists.
3) transient does not allow changing font size with
   text-scale-increase/decrease (but a smaller font would not be
   legible)


- transient:
    - Archive: gnu
    - Version: 0.8.1
    - dependency issue before explicitly installing this version.

- emacs    29.4
- org    9.7.16
- gptel    ~/.emacs.d/elpa/gptel-0.9.6.0.20241115.83706


some current org menus, although REALLY GOOD, have possibly
regressed in recent years.  in any case, for example, export is
scrollable; todo kw is not, so i cannot access some todo kw.

i put a lot of effort into this response, hope it makes sense.


On Mon, Dec 16, 2024 at 10:52 AM Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> wrote:
>
> Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > a couple of quick and somewhat obvious comments.  i use VERY large
> > fonts with a maximized gui emacs [vt / maximized urxvt  when needed],
> > still resulting in, throughout emacs, often, a smaller number of
> > screen lines or columns than content, even with my usual one window
> > per frame.  most org menus respect this and can be scrolled or
> > tweaked.  just wanted compatibility to be in the specs.  especially,
> > to make sure no functionality is unreachable, but also where possible
> > to modify column numbers / fill to look ok.  i am slowly trying
> > transient in gptel and still getting used to it.
>
> Thanks for the important input!
> Does transient look fine on your screen? If yes, we should not have a
> problem.
>
> --
> Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
> Org mode maintainer,
> Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
> Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
> or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>



--
The Kafka Pandemic

A blog about science, health, human rights, and misopathy:
https://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com

Re: [RFC] The best way to choose an "action" at point: context-menu-mode, transient, which-key or embark? (was: Fwd: Org-cite: Replace basic follow-processor with transient menu?)

[Samuel Wales]

thanks for interest.

the transient menu i am trying uses more character columns and
lines than window (c-u m-x gptel-send).  transient's solution
does not work well for me.

1) wrapping
   - 3 text columns.  rightmost text column (header: "Response
     to") has lines that wrap at rhs (not word) to lhs (not
     beginning of that text column), putting lines between items
     in first text column.
   - (for clarity: by rhs and lhs, i mean where text goes, at
     smallest usable font, maximized gui frame, no wm
     decoration, one window in frame, 2 fringes)
   - BEST SOLUTION FOR ME: wrap at word boundaries, /within each
     text column/, as is done when one exports org tables to
     html
2) vertical scrolling
   - BEST SOLUTION FOR ME: SPC DEL, as is done in org export
     menu
     - in transient, SPC and DEL make echo area say ? for help.
       ? makes the message go away but nothing else changes.
       another ?  brings up the help for function gptel-send.
       i'd want scrolling.
     - transient is vertically scrollable using up down arrows
       and c-v m-v, but those are harder on rsi and harder to
       locate on my kb than SPC DEL
   - i did not notice that there are lines below window.  if
     there isn't an indicator, BEST LOCATION FOR ME: left fringe
     in cases where fringe exists.
3) transient does not allow changing font size with
   text-scale-increase/decrease (but a smaller font would not be
   legible)


- transient:
    - Archive: gnu
    - Version: 0.8.1
    - dependency issue before explicitly installing this version.

- emacs    29.4
- org    9.7.16
- gptel    ~/.emacs.d/elpa/gptel-0.9.6.0.
20241115.83706


some current org menus, although REALLY GOOD, have possibly
regressed in recent years.  in any case, for example, export is
scrollable; todo kw is not, so i cannot access some todo kw.

i put a lot of effort into this response, hope it makes sense.


[p.s.  attempting re-send as reply to all as my first response went to
ihor only.  i hope this is not too jarring as a top post and sent to
all recipients.  idk which recipients are included 1] because others
included them easrlier in the thread/conversation vs. 2] because they
are not on the emacs devel list or the org list an want copies.]

[p.p.s. this webmail ui drives me nuts and some solecisms are due to
it being inaccessible [e.g. no compose button showing, not clear how
to change subject header.]

> On Mon, Dec 16, 2024 at 10:52 AM Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> wrote:
> >
> > Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> writes:
> >
> > > a couple of quick and somewhat obvious comments.  i use VERY large
> > > fonts with a maximized gui emacs [vt / maximized urxvt  when needed],
> > > still resulting in, throughout emacs, often, a smaller number of
> > > screen lines or columns than content, even with my usual one window
> > > per frame.  most org menus respect this and can be scrolled or
> > > tweaked.  just wanted compatibility to be in the specs.  especially,
> > > to make sure no functionality is unreachable, but also where possible
> > > to modify column numbers / fill to look ok.  i am slowly trying
> > > transient in gptel and still getting used to it.
> >
> > Thanks for the important input!
> > Does transient look fine on your screen? If yes, we should not have a
> > problem.
> >
> > --
> > Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
> > Org mode maintainer,
> > Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
> > Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
> > or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
>
>
>
> --
> The Kafka Pandemic
>
> A blog about science, health, human rights, and misopathy:
> https://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com



-- 
The Kafka Pandemic

A blog about science, health, human rights, and misopathy:
https://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com

Re: [RFC] The best way to choose an "action" at point: context-menu-mode, transient, which-key or embark?

[Ihor Radchenko]

Kierin Bell <fernseed@fernseed.me> writes:

> I think that the built-in Emacs thingatpt.el should not be overlooked
> here.
>
> Instead of implementing an entire system specific to Org, imagine a
> generic action-at-point interface that works on "things" from
> thingatpt.el. For the various targets, Org could add new "providers" to
> `thing-at-point-provider-alist', `forward-thing-provider-alist', and
> `bounds-of-thing-at-point-provider-alist'. [ Org actually does already
> register its own 'url' provider for links. ]

This is actually not what I had in mind in this thread. I was only
hoping to get input about customizing menu interface in a way that menu
UI can be chosen by user.

As for `thing-at-point', it is not enough for Org's needs.
Let me show you an example of one of the Org "action" commands.

org-ctrl-c-ctrl-c does the following:

1. If performs specific actions depending on Org syntax element at point
2. It performs alternative action in Org edit buffers where
   org-finish-function is defined.
3. It performs different things depending on context around thing at
   point. For example, first paragraph inside a list will trigger a
   different action compared to just a paragraph.

While (1) can be easily ported to thing-at-point, (2) is much harder,
and (3) will involve creating artificial "things" just for the purposes
of specific Org command.

> Then, Org could implement a number of action selection interfaces that
> act on the various classes of "thing". An exemplary package would be
> Philip Kaludercic's great =do-at-point= package, which provides a simple
> action selection menu for the thing-at-point using
> `read-multiple-choice', which I find elegant and intuitive.[1]

I'd like Org _not to implement interfaces_. Instead, I want to reuse the
existing interfaces - transient, menus, which-key, etc. My main question
is whether we can do such thing cleanly.

> I may also be misunderstanding the proposed interface. For example,
> instead of a generic interface for acting on a single thing at point,
> maybe you are describing more of an interface for associating commands
> with multiple potential targets that must be located (e.g., in a
> subtree), which are then each associated with actions.

Yup, something more like this.

> Even if that's the case, there is a good case for implementing
> thingatpt.el providers for the targets, so that users could bring our
> own action-at-point packages/interfaces. [ I would be willing to help
> write some of those providers. ] And if thingatpt.el isn't generalized
> or fast enough, then there is a case for creating a new, more flexible
> /de facto/ library like this for Emacs.

Better interoperability with thingatpt.el will be certainly welcome.
I even coined this idea in the context of tree-sitter in the past.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode maintainer,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Transient: accessibility problems for users who need to use large fonts (was: [RFC] The best way to choose an "action" at point: context-menu-mode, transient, which-key or embark? (was: Fwd: Org-cite: Replace basic follow-processor with transient menu?))

[Ihor Radchenko]

Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> writes:

> thanks for interest.
>
> the transient menu i am trying uses more character columns and
> lines than window (c-u m-x gptel-send).  transient's solution
> does not work well for me.

Just to be 100% clear, existing Org menus will not disappear any time
soon. Even if we change menus to transient, I will make sure to leave a
customization to switch back.

New menus will probably use transient/other external menu UI though.

As for your response, I will provide some comments, but I also suggest
you to send a bug report to Emacs, so that Jonas has a chance to pay
close attention.

> 1) wrapping
>    - 3 text columns.  rightmost text column (header: "Response
>      to") has lines that wrap at rhs (not word) to lhs (not
>      beginning of that text column), putting lines between items
>      in first text column.
>    - (for clarity: by rhs and lhs, i mean where text goes, at
>      smallest usable font, maximized gui frame, no wm
>      decoration, one window in frame, 2 fringes)
>    - BEST SOLUTION FOR ME: wrap at word boundaries, /within each
>      text column/, as is done when one exports org tables to
>      html

In other words, you need visual-line-mode inside transient buffers. Do I
understand correctly?

> 2) vertical scrolling
>    - BEST SOLUTION FOR ME: SPC DEL, as is done in org export
>      menu
>      - in transient, SPC and DEL make echo area say ? for help.
>        ? makes the message go away but nothing else changes.
>        another ?  brings up the help for function gptel-send.
>        i'd want scrolling.
>      - transient is vertically scrollable using up down arrows
>        and c-v m-v, but those are harder on rsi and harder to
>        locate on my kb than SPC DEL

I think you can bind SPC and DEL in `transient-base-map' to make things
easier for you. I agree that SPC/DEL doing scrolling are expected from a
menu.

>    - i did not notice that there are lines below window.  if
>      there isn't an indicator, BEST LOCATION FOR ME: left fringe
>      in cases where fringe exists.

How do you usually know it?

On my side, there is an indication after I customized
(setq-default indicate-buffer-boundaries 'left)

> 3) transient does not allow changing font size with
>    text-scale-increase/decrease (but a smaller font would not be
>    legible)

This sounds like an omission. Again, you can use `transient-base-map' to
work around, but it is better to be discussed as a dedicated bug report.

> some current org menus, although REALLY GOOD, have possibly
> regressed in recent years.  in any case, for example, export is
> scrollable; todo kw is not, so i cannot access some todo kw.

AFAIU, org-fast-todo-selection interface was never scrollable. At least,
it looks like it was the case 17 years ago. May I know more details
about which exact menu you are talking about and when did scroll stopped
working? I may be missing something.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode maintainer,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: Transient: accessibility problems for users who need to use large fonts (was: [RFC] The best way to choose an "action" at point: context-menu-mode, transient, which-key or embark? (was: Fwd: Org-cite: Replace basic follow-processor with transient menu?))

[Samuel Wales]

On Tue, Dec 17, 2024 at 11:02 AM Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> wrote:
> In other words, you need visual-line-mode inside transient buffers. Do I
> understand correctly?

that sounds similar to current behavior.

my suggestion would wrap to the character column of the beginning of
the third text column.

similar to html for non-first table cells.  not lhs.

lorem ipsum        akemashite omedetou    hello
asjnfaksjdnf         ajsk dfnkajsd fkaj sf        this line
                                                                   long

code likely exists someplace in core for this.  in org or a browser.

> I think you can bind SPC and DEL in `transient-base-map' to make things
> easier for you. I agree that SPC/DEL doing scrolling are expected from a
> menu.

thank you.

it would make sense, for me, usually, for SPC to wrap around to first
page in menus, so that DEL is not strictly needed.  transient wraps
for arrow; idk SPC.

> On my side, there is an indication after I customized
> (setq-default indicate-buffer-boundaries 'left)

you are absolutely right.  i have had something similar forever.

the reason i didn't notice it is 1] for me the fringe glyph is small
-- can it be larger? and 2] the cursor is always at bol in transient
in my case for that menu, so the fringe is less noticeable next to a
large block cursor.

also, i just noticed that transient has a dim horizontal line at eob
in that menu which is thoughtful and useful.  i don't know what face
it uses.

> which exact menu you are talking about and when did scroll stopped
> working? I may be missing something.

i don't think you're missing anything significant.  i didn't mean to
make you do forensics.  it was merely a recollection of a possibility;
 i'd find it useful if todo kw scrolled, but i cannot say that it
regressed.

Re: [RFC] The best way to choose an "action" at point: context-menu-mode, transient, which-key or embark? (was: Fwd: Org-cite: Replace basic follow-processor with transient menu?)

[Jonas Bernoulli]

Hello!


Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> writes:

> thanks for interest.

I've worked with other users with impaired vision to improve their
experience with Transient before and tend to prioritize that work.

That being said, the end-of-year crunch is upon us, so I likely won't
find the time to do anything beyond what I have already done today.

You should update Transient to the development version.  I found two
regressions affecting the features described below and fixed them this
morning.  These fixes will make it into the next release, scheduled for
very early 2025.

> the transient menu i am trying uses more character columns and
> lines than window (c-u m-x gptel-send).

I didn't notice that you effectively said "too small in both
dimensions", so the first advice below, might not be as useful as I
initially though.  Or it might, let's see.

> transient's solution does not work well for me.
>
> 1) wrapping
>    - 3 text columns.

You can tell Transient to only ever use a single column, and
additionally you can always display the menu in a new window on the
right instead of at the bottom.

(setq transient-force-single-column t)
(setq transient-display-buffer-action
      '(display-buffer-in-side-window
        (side . right)
        (dedicated . t)
        (inhibit-same-window . t)))

>                       rightmost text column (header: "Response
>      to") has lines that wrap at rhs (not word) to lhs (not
>      beginning of that text column), putting lines between items
>      in first text column.
>    - (for clarity: by rhs and lhs, i mean where text goes, at
>      smallest usable font, maximized gui frame, no wm
>      decoration, one window in frame, 2 fringes)
>    - BEST SOLUTION FOR ME: wrap at word boundaries, /within each
>      text column/, as is done when one exports org tables to
>      html
> 2) vertical scrolling
>    - BEST SOLUTION FOR ME: SPC DEL, as is done in org export
>      menu
>      - in transient, SPC and DEL make echo area say ? for help.
>        ? makes the message go away but nothing else changes.
>        another ?  brings up the help for function gptel-send.
>        i'd want scrolling.
>      - transient is vertically scrollable using up down arrows
>        and c-v m-v, but those are harder on rsi and harder to
>        locate on my kb than SPC DEL

You can add your preferred bindings like so:

  (keymap-set transient-map "SPC" #'transient-scroll-up)
  (keymap-set transient-map "DEL" #'transient-scroll-down)

Some Transient menus to *not* prevent commands from other keymaps to
be invoked while the menu is active.  If you bind "SPC" in all menus
as shown above, then that will shadow the regular binding, making it
hard to insert a space.

[However, I'll have to deeply think about the bindings used for commands
available in all transient menus in general soon, but this is not the
time and place.]

[I'll likely also have to support horizontal scrolling eventually.]

>    - i did not notice that there are lines below window.  if
>      there isn't an indicator, BEST LOCATION FOR ME: left fringe
>      in cases where fringe exists.

This enters "I'll look into that next year" territory.

The color of that line actually indicates whether a menu allows
"outside" commands to be invoked while the menu is active.

Most users don't notice this piece of information, myself included.
You can hide it, if you wish, using:

  (setq transient-mode-line-format nil)

> 3) transient does not allow changing font size with
>    text-scale-increase/decrease (but a smaller font would not be
>    legible)

To permanently use a different font size in transient menus use:

  (defun transient-i-shrunk-the-glyphs ()
    (text-scale-set -1)) ; or 1 to grow

  (add-hook 'transient-setup-buffer-hook #'transient-i-shrunk-the-glyphs)

To allow changing the size on demand, use something like:

  (defun transient-text-scale-increase (inc)
    (interactive "p")
    (with-current-buffer transient--buffer
      (text-scale-increase inc)))

  (defun transient-text-scale-decrease (dec)
    (interactive "p")
    (with-current-buffer transient--buffer
      (text-scale-decrease dec)))

  (keymap-set transient-map "C-x +" #'transient-text-scale-increase)
  (keymap-set transient-map "C-x -" #'transient-text-scale-decrease)
  (keymap-set transient-predicate-map "<transient-text-scale-increase>"
              #'transient--do-call)
  (keymap-set transient-predicate-map "<transient-text-scale-decrease>"
              #'transient--do-call)

You could also remember the size between menu invocations:

  (defvar transient-text-scale-amount 0)

  (transient-define-suffix transient-text-scale-increase (inc)
    :transient t
    (interactive "p")
    (with-current-buffer transient--buffer
      (text-scale-increase inc)
      (setq transient-text-scale-amount text-scale-mode-amount)))

  (transient-define-suffix transient-text-scale-decrease (inc)
    :transient t
    (interactive "p")
    (with-current-buffer transient--buffer
      (text-scale-decrease dec)
      (setq transient-text-scale-amount text-scale-mode-amount)))

  (keymap-set transient-map "C-x +" #'transient-text-scale-increase)
  (keymap-set transient-map "C-x -" #'transient-text-scale-decrease)

  (defun transient-restore-text-scale ()
    (unless (local-variable-p 'text-scale-mode-amount)
      (text-scale-set transient-text-scale-amount)))

I might make a refinement of one of these variants available by default,
but that will require some more though, which I don't have the time for
until next year.

     Cheers,
     Jonas


> - transient:
>     - Archive: gnu
>     - Version: 0.8.1
>     - dependency issue before explicitly installing this version.
>
> - emacs    29.4
> - org    9.7.16
> - gptel    ~/.emacs.d/elpa/gptel-0.9.6.0.20241115.83706
>
>
> some current org menus, although REALLY GOOD, have possibly
> regressed in recent years.  in any case, for example, export is
> scrollable; todo kw is not, so i cannot access some todo kw.
>
> i put a lot of effort into this response, hope it makes sense.
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 16, 2024 at 10:52 AM Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> wrote:
>>
>> Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> > a couple of quick and somewhat obvious comments.  i use VERY large
>> > fonts with a maximized gui emacs [vt / maximized urxvt  when needed],
>> > still resulting in, throughout emacs, often, a smaller number of
>> > screen lines or columns than content, even with my usual one window
>> > per frame.  most org menus respect this and can be scrolled or
>> > tweaked.  just wanted compatibility to be in the specs.  especially,
>> > to make sure no functionality is unreachable, but also where possible
>> > to modify column numbers / fill to look ok.  i am slowly trying
>> > transient in gptel and still getting used to it.
>>
>> Thanks for the important input!
>> Does transient look fine on your screen? If yes, we should not have a
>> problem.
>>
>> --
>> Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
>> Org mode maintainer,
>> Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
>> Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
>> or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
>
>
>
> --
> The Kafka Pandemic
>
> A blog about science, health, human rights, and misopathy:
> https://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com

Re: Transient: accessibility problems for users who need to use large fonts (was: [RFC] The best way to choose an "action" at point: context-menu-mode, transient, which-key or embark? (was: Fwd: Org-cite: Replace basic follow-processor with transient menu?))

[Jonas Bernoulli]

If I understand the below correctly, you prefer noticeable truncation
in combination with convenient scrolling support, over wrapping (which
is bound to look bad and confusing, even if we optimize some more).

That is my own preference (too?), and we can look into further tweaks
in that direction next year.

     Jonas


Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> writes:

> On Tue, Dec 17, 2024 at 11:02 AM Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> wrote:
>> In other words, you need visual-line-mode inside transient buffers. Do I
>> understand correctly?
>
> that sounds similar to current behavior.
>
> my suggestion would wrap to the character column of the beginning of
> the third text column.
>
> similar to html for non-first table cells.  not lhs.
>
> lorem ipsum        akemashite omedetou    hello
> asjnfaksjdnf         ajsk dfnkajsd fkaj sf        this line
>                                                                    long
>
> code likely exists someplace in core for this.  in org or a browser.
>
>> I think you can bind SPC and DEL in `transient-base-map' to make things
>> easier for you. I agree that SPC/DEL doing scrolling are expected from a
>> menu.
>
> thank you.
>
> it would make sense, for me, usually, for SPC to wrap around to first
> page in menus, so that DEL is not strictly needed.  transient wraps
> for arrow; idk SPC.
>
>> On my side, there is an indication after I customized
>> (setq-default indicate-buffer-boundaries 'left)
>
> you are absolutely right.  i have had something similar forever.
>
> the reason i didn't notice it is 1] for me the fringe glyph is small
> -- can it be larger? and 2] the cursor is always at bol in transient
> in my case for that menu, so the fringe is less noticeable next to a
> large block cursor.
>
> also, i just noticed that transient has a dim horizontal line at eob
> in that menu which is thoughtful and useful.  i don't know what face
> it uses.
>
>> which exact menu you are talking about and when did scroll stopped
>> working? I may be missing something.
>
> i don't think you're missing anything significant.  i didn't mean to
> make you do forensics.  it was merely a recollection of a possibility;
>  i'd find it useful if todo kw scrolled, but i cannot say that it
> regressed.