From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alex Schroeder Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: What custom is and does Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 19:48:39 +0200 Sender: emacs-devel-admin@gnu.org Message-ID: <87sn0lofm0.fsf_-_@emacswiki.org> References: <87ofbji88u.fsf@emacswiki.org> <87sn0scb0b.fsf@emacswiki.org> <200209061728.g86HSVp32767@rum.cs.yale.edu> <20020906220339.GA7270@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1031420888 12543 127.0.0.1 (7 Sep 2002 17:48:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 17:48:08 +0000 (UTC) Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17njgl-0003GA-00 for ; Sat, 07 Sep 2002 19:48:07 +0200 Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 17nkFo-0006ol-00 for ; Sat, 07 Sep 2002 20:24:21 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 17njgi-0002I9-00; Sat, 07 Sep 2002 13:48:04 -0400 Original-Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) id 17njf5-00029Z-00 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Sep 2002 13:46:23 -0400 Original-Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) id 17njf2-00028H-00 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Sep 2002 13:46:22 -0400 Original-Received: from relay01.cablecom.net ([62.2.33.101]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 17njf2-00028B-00 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Sep 2002 13:46:20 -0400 Original-Received: from smtp.swissonline.ch (mail-4.swissonline.ch [62.2.32.85]) by relay01.cablecom.net (8.12.5/8.12.5/SOL/AWF/MXRELAY/20020820) with ESMTP id g87HkI20008208 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2002 19:46:18 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from alex@emacswiki.org) Original-Received: from confusibombus (dclient217-162-239-98.hispeed.ch [217.162.239.98]) by smtp.swissonline.ch (8.11.6/8.11.6/SMTPSOL/AWF/2002040101) with ESMTP id g87HkIF06556 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2002 19:46:18 +0200 (MEST) Original-Received: from alex by confusibombus with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17njhI-00005n-00 for ; Sat, 07 Sep 2002 19:48:40 +0200 Original-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Face: ^BC$`[IcggstLPyen&dqF+b2'zyK#r.mU*'Nms}@&4zw%SJ#5!/7SMVjBS7'lb;QK)|IPU5U'o1'522W4TyzB3Ab*IBo^iw]l4|kUbdZuUDO6=Um-.4IzhNiV'B"@K#jy_(wW|Zbk[34flKY^|PrQ?$u2\fKg^]AY>wOX#H32i In-Reply-To: ("Robert J. Chassell"'s message of "Sat, 7 Sep 2002 14:17:06 +0000 (UTC)") Original-Lines: 55 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090008 (Oort Gnus v0.08) Emacs/21.2.90 (i686-pc-linux-gnu) Errors-To: emacs-devel-admin@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Emacs development discussions. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:7700 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:7700 "Robert J. Chassell" writes: > Please explain in more detail. I cannot infer your implications. I guess the problem is that do not understand what your problem with custom is. Therefore, what Per says makes perfect sense to me but I cannot explain it to you -- it seems that you two are talking about two different problems. Per wrote what he did in response to something Miles wrote: Miles Bader wrote: > Agreed. Customize should be a friendly face for the existing > infrastructure, not a distant relative... Perhaps the two of you understood two different things, there? I spent quite a bit of time explaining my mental model of custom, and its relation to setq statements. Perhaps in your question, you could take my answer and tell me what questions this leaves unanswered, or what implication you do not follow. The way I saw it, I said that custom-set-variables was only remotely connected to setq. You can use custom-set-variables as a complex and unreadable variant of hand-written setq statements. I explained that this was a very simplified mental model and that it would not be good enough to explain more powerful features. Per's position is that custom is a very powerful library to build a user interface for the customization of Emacs. He also said (more or less) that to look at custom as just another way to write elisp into your .emacs and to expect it to have the very same qualities hand-written elisp such as readability, modifyability, etc. was to constrain the powers of custom. He seems to be saying that working on this part of custom was worth less than working on extending custom in new directions (such as keymaps, wizards/saints, etc.). His point is that custom can be used to build a customization infrastructure for Emacs that has very little to do with the underlying lisp variables and functions. This is why he does not mind two variables instead of one -- because custom can be used for greater things and by more newbies that know nothing of lisp. Per might argue that to use the underlying lisp code as an argument in discussions about custom was an indication of the lack of understand people have for the potential of custom. To this you responded along the lines that you consider this lack readability, modifyability, of the saved data as a bug and it seemed that you wanted people to work on this with rather high priorities. Perhaps you need to explain your priorities, or perhaps you need to restate the problem. Or perhaps we need to have a discussion about what custom is and does and what custom could and should be. I have read lots of posts by Per so I basically know where he is coming from... :) I just don't know where you stand in all of this. Alex.