From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: python.el changes in emacs-24 Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2014 15:58:20 +0200 Organization: Organization?!? Message-ID: <87silbm41v.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> References: <85silp26f5.fsf@stephe-leake.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1407247148 4097 80.91.229.3 (5 Aug 2014 13:59:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 13:59:08 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Aug 05 15:59:01 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1XEfGV-0000x0-VN for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 05 Aug 2014 15:59:00 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:59579 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XEfGV-0006eN-M2 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 05 Aug 2014 09:58:59 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:38520) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XEfGK-0006X0-Vb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 05 Aug 2014 09:58:56 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XEfGD-0003a7-Aj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 05 Aug 2014 09:58:48 -0400 Original-Received: from plane.gmane.org ([80.91.229.3]:50746) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XEfGD-0003a0-5N for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 05 Aug 2014 09:58:41 -0400 Original-Received: from list by plane.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1XEfGB-0000TP-0z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 05 Aug 2014 15:58:39 +0200 Original-Received: from x2f49383.dyn.telefonica.de ([2.244.147.131]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 05 Aug 2014 15:58:39 +0200 Original-Received: from dak by x2f49383.dyn.telefonica.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 05 Aug 2014 15:58:39 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 47 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: x2f49383.dyn.telefonica.de X-Face: 2FEFf>]>q>2iw=B6, xrUubRI>pR&Ml9=ao@P@i)L:\urd*t9M~y1^:+Y]'C0~{mAl`oQuAl \!3KEIp?*w`|bL5qr,H)LFO6Q=qx~iH4DN; i"; /yuIsqbLLCh/!U#X[S~(5eZ41to5f%E@'ELIi$t^ Vc\LWP@J5p^rst0+('>Er0=^1{]M9!p?&:\z]|;&=NP3AhB!B_bi^]Pfkw User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.4.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:I5XIp2l5GA00TThsnFPZnAsFvB4= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.229.3 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:173438 Archived-At: Tim Visher writes: > Since my terse statement earlier has already been explained quite well > by Stephen, I'll simply say that I agree with what he said. I think > the best way to gain support for the Free Software Movement is by > making Free Software the best software, You will not gain support for the Free Software Movement this way. You will get support for particular software that happens to be free. > a goal which, I believe (and I would hope everyone here would agree), > is actually _aided_ by the software itself being Free. That's putting the cart before the horse. It's like trying to get rich in order to gain friends. The problem is that your actual need for friends will kick in when you are _not_ financially successful, and the need for actual free software enthusiasts will kick in when the Free Software is in sore need of improvement. > So when I hear things like "We're not in the business of competing", > it translates in my head to "We're not in the business of showing > people why Free Software matters and how it can help them." But you _exactly_ state that you do _not_ want to show people why Free Software matters, instead trying to make it advertisable as "the best software". > It's no skin off my back; I'll continue to use and love Emacs and > other GNU software. But it'll continue to make it harder to 'sell' it > to my friends, who think Sublime Text is _so_ much better because it > comes with saner defaults, more features (out of the box and visible > to the eye), and a prettier ui. If that is what your friends want and that is the only thing you consider able to sell them, they are a lost cause for Free Software. Naturally, we want to have sane defaults and useful features for Emacs and its ilk. But the reason is not to have more users who could not care less about Software Freedom. They'll move on when the software they use has problems rather than try help with fixing the problems. All else being equal, there is nothing wrong with having a larger number of don't-really-care users. But it's not the primary goal. It's merely a metric for doing something well that's nice to have. -- David Kastrup