Stop fiddling with my preferences

Stop fiddling with my preferences

[Roland Lutz]

I've been using Emacs for quite a while, and I think it's a great program. 
Sure, things work differently than in most newly-written GUI applications, 
but at least for me, they work *better*.

For the past few months, however, each time I upgraded to a new version of 
Emacs, something in the behavior changed.  I had to figure out each time 
what it was that caused the change and how to compensate for it.  This 
usually took me an hour or more since it isn't easily documented and most 
solutions suggested on the web have unwanted side-effects.  Right now, the 
compatibility section in my .emacs file reads:

(set 'x-select-enable-clipboard nil)
(set 'x-select-enable-primary t)
(set 'select-active-regions nil)
(set 'mouse-drag-copy-region t)
(set 'delete-active-region nil)
(set 'electric-indent-chars (remq ?\n electric-indent-chars))

This sort of behavior changes is common among browsers and proprietary 
operating systems, but does this make it appropriate for Emacs?  One of 
the reasons I'm using mature software is exactly that I *don't* have to be 
worried with each new version that ESC won't stop playing animated GIFs 
any more, etc.

I'm not arguing about defaults (I think they shouldn't change without a 
good reason--other than personal preference--either, but that's an 
entirely different story) but that I don't want them to change once I've 
got used to how Emacs works.

How about not changing the defaults but shipping an updated skeleton 
.emacs file instead?

How about a command like (use-defaults VERSION)?

Also, I'd appreciate if the history of user-visible changes included the 
commands necessary to restore the previous behavior.

Roland

Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences

[Eric S. Raymond]

Roland Lutz <rlutz-ml@hedmen.org>:
> How about a command like (use-defaults VERSION)?
> 
> Also, I'd appreciate if the history of user-visible changes included
> the commands necessary to restore the previous behavior.

I second this.  I'm a bit irritated by the new clipboard behavior myself.
We shouldn't ship changes like that without telling people how they
can keep the behavior theiy're used to.
-- 
		<a href="http://www.catb.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>

Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 11:27:05 -0500
> From: "Eric S. Raymond" <esr@thyrsus.com>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> > Also, I'd appreciate if the history of user-visible changes included
> > the commands necessary to restore the previous behavior.
> 
> I second this.  I'm a bit irritated by the new clipboard behavior
> myself.  We shouldn't ship changes like that without telling people
> how they can keep the behavior theiy're used to.

We didn't do anything like you imply.  See the NEWS excerpt below
(although having such complaints from people who clearly don't read
NEWS is hardly an incentive to continue with these efforts).

  ** Selection changes.

  The default handling of clipboard and primary selections has been
  changed to conform with modern X applications.  In short, most
  commands for killing and yanking text now use the clipboard, while
  mouse commands use the primary selection.

  In the following, we provide a list of these changes, followed by a
  list of steps to get the old behavior back if you prefer that.

  *** `select-active-regions' now defaults to t.
  Merely selecting text (e.g. with drag-mouse-1) no longer puts it in
  the kill ring.  The selected text is put in the primary selection, if
  the system possesses a separate primary selection facility (e.g. X).

  **** `select-active-regions' also accepts a new value, `only'.
  This means to only set the primary selection for temporarily active
  regions (usually made by mouse-dragging or shift-selection);
  "ordinary" active regions, such as those made with C-SPC followed by
  point motion, do not alter the primary selection.

  **** `mouse-drag-copy-region' now defaults to nil.

  *** mouse-2 is now bound to `mouse-yank-primary'.
  This pastes from the primary selection, ignoring the kill-ring.
  Previously, mouse-2 was bound to `mouse-yank-at-click'.

  *** `x-select-enable-clipboard' now defaults to t on all platforms.

  *** `x-select-enable-primary' now defaults to nil.
  Thus, commands that kill text or copy it to the kill-ring (such as
  M-w, C-w, and C-k) also use the clipboard---not the primary selection.

  **** The "Copy", "Cut", and "Paste" items in the "Edit" menu are now
  exactly equivalent to M-w, C-w, and C-y respectively.

  **** Note that on MS-Windows, `x-select-enable-clipboard' was already
  non-nil by default, as Windows does not support the primary selection
  between applications.

  *** To return to the previous behavior, do the following:

  **** Change `select-active-regions' to nil.
  **** Change `mouse-drag-copy-region' to t.
  **** Change `x-select-enable-primary' to t (on X only).
  **** Change `x-select-enable-clipboard' to nil.
  **** Bind `mouse-yank-at-click' to mouse-2.

  *** Support for X cut buffers has been removed.

  *** X clipboard managers are now supported.
  To inhibit this, change `x-select-enable-clipboard-manager' to nil.

Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences

[Roland Lutz]

On Sun, 23 Nov 2014, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> See the NEWS excerpt below (although having such complaints from people
> who clearly don't read NEWS is hardly an incentive to continue with
> these efforts).

These instructions are helpful (I didn't know about the NEWS file at that
point) but they are missing `delete-active-region'.  Sure, it's documented
a few paragraphs above, but it doesn't say that it's enabled by default.

For electric-indent-mode, it says:

> *** `electric-indent-mode' is now enabled by default.
> Typing RET reindents the current line and indents the new line.
> `C-j' inserts a newline but does not indent.  In some programming modes,
> additional characters are electric (eg `{').
>
> *** New buffer-local `electric-indent-local-mode'.

After a bit of confusion with the argument of electric-indent-mode (nil 
enabling the mode), I disabled it globally.  However, this disabled all 
other electric characters, too.  I couldn't find documented how to revert 
to the previous behavior where `{' is electric but RET isn't.

> From the menu bar, click Options->Customize Emacs->New Options, and
> you will be able to see all the options that were added or changed
> since some Emacs version.

This doesn't help me here.

Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 18:45:24 +0100 (CET)
> From: Roland Lutz <rlutz-ml@hedmen.org>
> cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> On Sun, 23 Nov 2014, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > See the NEWS excerpt below (although having such complaints from people
> > who clearly don't read NEWS is hardly an incentive to continue with
> > these efforts).
> 
> These instructions are helpful (I didn't know about the NEWS file at that
> point) but they are missing `delete-active-region'.  Sure, it's documented
> a few paragraphs above, but it doesn't say that it's enabled by default.

Like I said, please report this as a bug.

> For electric-indent-mode, it says:
> 
> > *** `electric-indent-mode' is now enabled by default.
> > Typing RET reindents the current line and indents the new line.
> > `C-j' inserts a newline but does not indent.  In some programming modes,
> > additional characters are electric (eg `{').
> >
> > *** New buffer-local `electric-indent-local-mode'.
> 
> After a bit of confusion with the argument of electric-indent-mode (nil 
> enabling the mode), I disabled it globally.  However, this disabled all 
> other electric characters, too.  I couldn't find documented how to revert 
> to the previous behavior where `{' is electric but RET isn't.

I think you want

  M-x electric-indent-just-newline RET

Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 16:35:37 +0100 (CET)
> From: Roland Lutz <rlutz-ml@hedmen.org>
> 
> For the past few months, however, each time I upgraded to a new version of 
> Emacs, something in the behavior changed.

The time between Emacs releases is not measured in months,
unfortunately, but in years.

> I had to figure out each time what it was that caused the change and
> how to compensate for it.  This usually took me an hour or more
> since it isn't easily documented and most solutions suggested on the
> web have unwanted side-effects.

Changes in user-visible behavior are documented in etc/NEWS, together
with the description of how to get back old behavior.  If you find
some change that isn't documented like that, please report that as a
bug.

> This sort of behavior changes is common among browsers and proprietary 
> operating systems, but does this make it appropriate for Emacs?  One of 
> the reasons I'm using mature software is exactly that I *don't* have to be 
> worried with each new version that ESC won't stop playing animated GIFs 
> any more, etc.

We change user-visible behavior in response to user demand, not
because Emacs is immature.  User demands and expectations change with
time, and Emacs cannot stay with old defaults forever.

> How about a command like (use-defaults VERSION)?

From the menu bar, click Options->Customize Emacs->New Options, and
you will be able to see all the options that were added or changed
since some Emacs version.

> Also, I'd appreciate if the history of user-visible changes included the 
> commands necessary to restore the previous behavior.

We already do that, see above.  It should be in NEWS; if not, please
report as a bug.

Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences

[Fabrice Popineau]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> 
> > Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 16:35:37 +0100 (CET)
> > From: Roland Lutz <rlutz-ml <at> hedmen.org>
> > 
> > For the past few months, however, each time I upgraded to a new version of 
> > Emacs, something in the behavior changed.
> 
> The time between Emacs releases is not measured in months,
> unfortunately, but in years.
> 
> > I had to figure out each time what it was that caused the change and
> > how to compensate for it.  This usually took me an hour or more
> > since it isn't easily documented and most solutions suggested on the
> > web have unwanted side-effects.
> 
> Changes in user-visible behavior are documented in etc/NEWS, together
> with the description of how to get back old behavior.  If you find
> some change that isn't documented like that, please report that as a
> bug.
> 
> > This sort of behavior changes is common among browsers and proprietary 
> > operating systems, but does this make it appropriate for Emacs?  One of 
> > the reasons I'm using mature software is exactly that I *don't* have to be 
> > worried with each new version that ESC won't stop playing animated GIFs 
> > any more, etc.
> 
> We change user-visible behavior in response to user demand, not
> because Emacs is immature.  User demands and expectations change with
> time, and Emacs cannot stay with old defaults forever.
> 
> > How about a command like (use-defaults VERSION)?
> 
> From the menu bar, click Options->Customize Emacs->New Options, and
> you will be able to see all the options that were added or changed
> since some Emacs version.

Nice command, but fails for me right now with

Wrong type argument: stringp, (flycheck . "0.16")

(emacs-repository-get-version)
"f97a7d9a833044a828e0ce96ae3df600d613b359"

in lisp/cus-edit.el :

  (let (found)
    (mapatoms
     (lambda (symbol)
        (let* ((package-version (get symbol 'custom-package-version))
               (version
                (or (and package-version
                         (customize-package-emacs-version symbol
                                                          package-version))
                    (get symbol 'custom-version))))
	 (if version
	     (when (customize-version-lessp since-version version)
	       (if (or (get symbol 'custom-group)
		       (get symbol 'group-documentation))
		   (push (list symbol 'custom-group) found))
	       (if (custom-variable-p symbol)
		   (push (list symbol 'custom-variable) found))
	       (if (custom-facep symbol)
		   (push (list symbol 'custom-face) found)))))))

(get symbol 'custom-version)  is not a fail safe value to pass to #'customize-
version-lessp since it returns a cons where you need a string.

The #'customize-version-lessp function tries to compare the former which is the 
package version (say for me, it fails with '(flycheck . "0.16") ) whith the 
latter which is "24.1" (the emacs since-version). This has to be fixed albeit I 
have no idea about the best way to do it.

Fabrice

Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences

[Sebastian Wiesner]

Am 23.11.2014 um 18:25 schrieb Fabrice Popineau <fabrice.popineau@gmail.com>:
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
> 
>> 
>>> Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2014 16:35:37 +0100 (CET)
>>> From: Roland Lutz <rlutz-ml <at> hedmen.org>
>>> 
>>> For the past few months, however, each time I upgraded to a new version of 
>>> Emacs, something in the behavior changed.
>> 
>> The time between Emacs releases is not measured in months,
>> unfortunately, but in years.
>> 
>>> I had to figure out each time what it was that caused the change and
>>> how to compensate for it.  This usually took me an hour or more
>>> since it isn't easily documented and most solutions suggested on the
>>> web have unwanted side-effects.
>> 
>> Changes in user-visible behavior are documented in etc/NEWS, together
>> with the description of how to get back old behavior.  If you find
>> some change that isn't documented like that, please report that as a
>> bug.
>> 
>>> This sort of behavior changes is common among browsers and proprietary 
>>> operating systems, but does this make it appropriate for Emacs?  One of 
>>> the reasons I'm using mature software is exactly that I *don't* have to be 
>>> worried with each new version that ESC won't stop playing animated GIFs 
>>> any more, etc.
>> 
>> We change user-visible behavior in response to user demand, not
>> because Emacs is immature.  User demands and expectations change with
>> time, and Emacs cannot stay with old defaults forever.
>> 
>>> How about a command like (use-defaults VERSION)?
>> 
>> From the menu bar, click Options->Customize Emacs->New Options, and
>> you will be able to see all the options that were added or changed
>> since some Emacs version.
> 
> Nice command, but fails for me right now with
> 
> Wrong type argument: stringp, (flycheck . "0.16")

This was an issue in Flycheck, caused by faulty keyword arguments to some `defcustom' definitions.  I've fixed it in the latest master.  Please update Flycheck.

I am sorry for the inconvenience this issue caused.

Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Sebastian Wiesner <swiesner@lunaryorn.com>
> Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 15:25:14 +0100
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> >> From the menu bar, click Options->Customize Emacs->New Options, and
> >> you will be able to see all the options that were added or changed
> >> since some Emacs version.
> > 
> > Nice command, but fails for me right now with
> > 
> > Wrong type argument: stringp, (flycheck . "0.16")
> 
> This was an issue in Flycheck, caused by faulty keyword arguments to some `defcustom' definitions.  I've fixed it in the latest master.  Please update Flycheck.

Thanks.

However, if the problem exists in the emacs-24 branch, please backport
the fix there.  (And in general such bugs should be fixed only on
emacs-24; they will be later merged onto master.)

Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences

[Sebastian Wiesner]

> Am 25.11.2014 um 17:47 schrieb Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>:
> 
>> From: Sebastian Wiesner <swiesner@lunaryorn.com>
>> Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 15:25:14 +0100
>> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> 
>>>> From the menu bar, click Options->Customize Emacs->New Options, and
>>>> you will be able to see all the options that were added or changed
>>>> since some Emacs version.
>>> 
>>> Nice command, but fails for me right now with
>>> 
>>> Wrong type argument: stringp, (flycheck . "0.16")
>> 
>> This was an issue in Flycheck, caused by faulty keyword arguments to some `defcustom' definitions.  I've fixed it in the latest master.  Please update Flycheck.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> However, if the problem exists in the emacs-24 branch, please backport
> the fix there.  (And in general such bugs should be fixed only on
> emacs-24; they will be later merged onto master.)

Er, I'm not sure I can follow you.  Did you confuse Flycheck with Flymake?

Flycheck is not part of GNU Emacs.  It's an independent 3rd party package, and a flaw in this package was causing the issue.

I don't contribute to Emacs.  I have no commit rights, and I didn't even sign the CA.

Sorry for the confusion

Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Sebastian Wiesner <swiesner@lunaryorn.com>
> Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 18:12:59 +0100
> Cc: fabrice.popineau@gmail.com,
>  emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> Er, I'm not sure I can follow you.  Did you confuse Flycheck with Flymake?

No, I just didn't know it's not part of Emacs.  Sorry.

Thanks for fixing the bug.

Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences

[Sebastian Wiesner]

> Am 25.11.2014 um 18:29 schrieb Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>:
> 
>> From: Sebastian Wiesner <swiesner@lunaryorn.com>
>> Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 18:12:59 +0100
>> Cc: fabrice.popineau@gmail.com,
>> emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> 
>> Er, I'm not sure I can follow you.  Did you confuse Flycheck with Flymake?
> 
> No, I just didn't know it's not part of Emacs.  Sorry.

No problem.  I'm sorry for the bug, and the confusion.  I should have said right away that it's a third party package.

> Thanks for fixing the bug.

You are welcome.

Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences

[Fabrice Popineau]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 742 bytes --]

Thanks also for fixing the bug and sorry for the noise with my
misunderstanding of the problem.

Fabrice


2014-11-25 18:30 GMT+01:00 Sebastian Wiesner <swiesner@lunaryorn.com>:

>
> > Am 25.11.2014 um 18:29 schrieb Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>:
> >
> >> From: Sebastian Wiesner <swiesner@lunaryorn.com>
> >> Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 18:12:59 +0100
> >> Cc: fabrice.popineau@gmail.com,
> >> emacs-devel@gnu.org
> >>
> >> Er, I'm not sure I can follow you.  Did you confuse Flycheck with
> Flymake?
> >
> > No, I just didn't know it's not part of Emacs.  Sorry.
>
> No problem.  I'm sorry for the bug, and the confusion.  I should have said
> right away that it's a third party package.
>
> > Thanks for fixing the bug.
>
> You are welcome.
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1439 bytes --]

Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences

[Bob Proulx]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> Roland Lutz wrote:
> > operating systems, but does this make it appropriate for Emacs?  One of 
> > the reasons I'm using mature software is exactly that I *don't* have to be 
> > worried with each new version that ESC won't stop playing animated GIFs 
> > any more, etc.
> 
> We change user-visible behavior in response to user demand, not
> because Emacs is immature.  User demands and expectations change with
> time, and Emacs cannot stay with old defaults forever.

I often hear developers saying this.  But I rarely hear users asking
for these (mis)features.  Therefore what it feels like is actually
happening is that when developers want to do something they just do it
and claim that users want it.  When they don't want to do it then they
claim they can't because of backward compatibility.  It is very
frustrating.

I had to make almost exactly the same fixes as Roland too.

Bob

Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences

[Stefan Monnier]

> for these (mis)features.  Therefore what it feels like is actually
> happening is that when developers want to do something they just do it
> and claim that users want it.

Every release comes with different kinds of new defaults:

- New features that are immediately enabled.  These are typically
  enabled specifically so that users get to use it without having to
  hunt for it and discover that it's actually bundled with Emacs.

- Old features which have been repeatedly requested, and which we
  finally polished/refined/cleaned up enough that enabling them by
  default is deemed acceptable.
  Typical example: shift-select-mode, font-lock-mode.

- Old features I like and can't imagine Bob would like to turn off.

- Random features that will irk old-timers.

This last kind is not useful in itself (other than for comic relief) by
is used afterwards as a witness in our statistical analysis of
bug-reports and complaints to measure more precisely the resistance to
change, and adjust our expectations for the next release.


        Stefan

Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 00:15:53 -0700
> From: Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com>
> 
> Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > Roland Lutz wrote:
> > > operating systems, but does this make it appropriate for Emacs?  One of 
> > > the reasons I'm using mature software is exactly that I *don't* have to be 
> > > worried with each new version that ESC won't stop playing animated GIFs 
> > > any more, etc.
> > 
> > We change user-visible behavior in response to user demand, not
> > because Emacs is immature.  User demands and expectations change with
> > time, and Emacs cannot stay with old defaults forever.
> 
> I often hear developers saying this.  But I rarely hear users asking
> for these (mis)features.

You should read this list more frequently, then.  Typically, each such
decision (or indecision) is accompanied by a very long discussion
here, with core developers usually _resisting_ radical changes that
break old habits.  We, too, use Emacs, you know.

Here's a discussion related to that particular (mis)feature.

  http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2013-10/msg00407.html

> Therefore what it feels like is actually happening is that when
> developers want to do something they just do it and claim that users
> want it.  When they don't want to do it then they claim they can't
> because of backward compatibility.

That's extremely unfair.  The truth is almost the opposite.  I invite
you to read the archives of this list and see for yourself.  Perhaps
others could point to additional discussions regarding similar changes
(turning on font-lock globally comes to mind).

Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences

[Stefan Monnier]

> (set 'x-select-enable-clipboard nil)
> (set 'x-select-enable-primary t)
> (set 'select-active-regions nil)
> (set 'mouse-drag-copy-region t)
> (set 'delete-active-region nil)
> (set 'electric-indent-chars (remq ?\n electric-indent-chars))

Maybe it makes sense to complement the NEWS file with a "retro.el" file
(oh maybe it should be called "iwannagoback.el") which tries to bring
back the default behavior of previous releases.

The main feature of this file (compared to NEWS which should already
contain this info) would be to be short.


        Stefan

Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences

[joakim]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> (set 'x-select-enable-clipboard nil)
>> (set 'x-select-enable-primary t)
>> (set 'select-active-regions nil)
>> (set 'mouse-drag-copy-region t)
>> (set 'delete-active-region nil)
>> (set 'electric-indent-chars (remq ?\n electric-indent-chars))
>
> Maybe it makes sense to complement the NEWS file with a "retro.el" file
> (oh maybe it should be called "iwannagoback.el") which tries to bring
> back the default behavior of previous releases.

antinews.el ?


>
> The main feature of this file (compared to NEWS which should already
> contain this info) would be to be short.



>
>
>         Stefan
>

-- 
Joakim Verona

Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences

[Eric Abrahamsen]

joakim@verona.se writes:

> Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
>
>>> (set 'x-select-enable-clipboard nil)
>>> (set 'x-select-enable-primary t)
>>> (set 'select-active-regions nil)
>>> (set 'mouse-drag-copy-region t)
>>> (set 'delete-active-region nil)
>>> (set 'electric-indent-chars (remq ?\n electric-indent-chars))
>>
>> Maybe it makes sense to complement the NEWS file with a "retro.el" file
>> (oh maybe it should be called "iwannagoback.el") which tries to bring
>> back the default behavior of previous releases.
>
> antinews.el ?

offmylawn.el?

Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences

[H. Dieter Wilhelm]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> (set 'x-select-enable-clipboard nil)
>> (set 'x-select-enable-primary t)
>> (set 'select-active-regions nil)
>> (set 'mouse-drag-copy-region t)
>> (set 'delete-active-region nil)
>> (set 'electric-indent-chars (remq ?\n electric-indent-chars))
>
> Maybe it makes sense to complement the NEWS file with a "retro.el" file
> (oh maybe it should be called "iwannagoback.el") which tries to bring
> back the default behavior of previous releases.
>
> The main feature of this file (compared to NEWS which should already
> contain this info) would be to be short.

A Resurrection of ANTINEWS?   Maybe a sort of, please!

“For those users who live backwards in time, here is information about
     downgrading (to the behaviour) of Emacs version XX.X.”  


     Dieter
-- 
Best wishes
H. Dieter Wilhelm
Darmstadt, Germany

Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: dieter@duenenhof-wilhelm.de (H. Dieter Wilhelm)
> Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 15:31:43 +0100
> 
> A Resurrection of ANTINEWS?

Antinews never died, we write a new chapter for each major release.

Re: Stop fiddling with my preferences

[H. Dieter Wilhelm]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: dieter@duenenhof-wilhelm.de (H. Dieter Wilhelm)
>> Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 15:31:43 +0100
>> 
>> A Resurrection of ANTINEWS?
>
> Antinews never died, we write a new chapter for each major release.

Good to know. :-)

Formerly I found it in /etc.  And now it's even in the Emacs manual,

thanks!

        Dieter

PS: And I should also update

    http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/AntiNews

with a hint where the latest stuff is...

-- 
Best wishes
H. Dieter Wilhelm
Darmstadt, Germany