From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: phillip.lord@newcastle.ac.uk (Phillip Lord) Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: On being web-friendly and why info must die Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 11:50:11 +0000 Message-ID: <87sigm4d8s.fsf@newcastle.ac.uk> References: <20141205123549.GA29331@thyrsus.com> <83k325195l.fsf@gnu.org> <5482D94B.2070102@cs.ucla.edu> <5484FF31.5010808@cs.ucla.edu> <5485FC59.5030700@cs.ucla.edu> <87388p6glt.fsf@engster.org> <871to9lw6g.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <5486A704.6090305@cs.ucla.edu> <87k321jj4e.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <54876F7F.9000607@cs.ucla.edu> <87y4qfj2u9.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <54889A57.5060905@cs.ucla.edu> <87vbljb9f4.fsf@wanadoo.es> <54889F6D.6060408@cs.ucla.edu> <87r3w7b83a.fsf@wanadoo.es> <5488C710.3000209@cs.ucla.edu> <871to7ayv9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <5488DC0C.2070402@cs.ucla.edu> <87d27qin2j.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1418298685 17242 80.91.229.3 (11 Dec 2014 11:51:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 11:51:25 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: David Kastrup Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Dec 11 12:51:18 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Xz2H8-00070h-DO for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 12:51:18 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:50415 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xz2H8-000324-1A for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 06:51:18 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:37600) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xz2GF-0002rP-0T for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 06:50:27 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xz2GA-0005Et-N5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 06:50:22 -0500 Original-Received: from cheviot22.ncl.ac.uk ([128.240.234.22]:58044) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xz2G4-0005DK-KU; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 06:50:12 -0500 Original-Received: from smtpauth-vm.ncl.ac.uk ([10.8.233.129] helo=smtpauth.ncl.ac.uk) by cheviot22.ncl.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Xz2G3-0001pZ-F5; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 11:50:11 +0000 Original-Received: from jangai.ncl.ac.uk ([10.66.67.223] helo=localhost) by smtpauth.ncl.ac.uk with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Xz2G3-0000E9-JN; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 11:50:11 +0000 In-Reply-To: <87d27qin2j.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> (David Kastrup's message of "Thu, 11 Dec 2014 09:54:12 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 128.240.234.22 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:179734 Archived-At: David Kastrup writes: > Paul Eggert writes: > >> =C3=93scar Fuentes wrote: >> >>> Some formats (like Org) are "final", in the sense that the source text >>> (the equivalent of *.texi) is intended for consumption (it is the *.info >>> too, although not as pretty as some of its other representations such as >>> HTML.) Failures on the structure are visible, links can be checked right >>> away, etc. >> >> This is an advantage of Org mode over Texinfo. > > It's also a disadvantage since it means that one simple text-based > output format has to contain the full information relevant for all other > output formats. Which causes visual clutter not relevant for the > text-based output format. The hope would be that this is kept to a minimum. For example, I am writing a book (using latex) with both a HTML and PDF output. Most of the conditional logic is in one place (in the prolog). I tried doing this with org also; again most of the multi format stuff was at the beginning of the file or in a lisp driver file. In the end, I stopped using org, and moved to latex because I find that the cross-referencing and bibliography facilities were better in auctex than org. > I have no idea what you mean by "Failures on the structure are visible" > when one can only see the source text. Org renders links clickable, and fontifies (and folds) based on the document structure. If it's broken in the org source, the visual presentation is also broken in org-mode. Basically, org-mode is WYSIWIGish. >> Besides, we need to be realistic: we don't have an army of >> documentation developers and we're unlikely to gain one while our doc >> tools are more awkward than they need to be. If we stick with our >> current development process this problem will likely just fester. > > Again: Texinfo is not a relevant hurdle. Elisp is. > > Org most certainly would be a larger hurdle for me. Well, lots of people here are saying that texinfo is a problem, even if it is not for you. Phil