From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: hw Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Some developement questions Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2018 10:01:06 +0200 Organization: my virtual residence Message-ID: <87sh2lu471.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <8336v6cvem.fsf@gnu.org> <8736v6icgt.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83tvnmb958.fsf@gnu.org> <877ekigiiw.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <837ekhb2me.fsf@gnu.org> <87zhxcbmtr.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83in409lub.fsf@gnu.org> <871sanb71j.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83y3cu7t9j.fsf@gnu.org> <87lg8t2ki9.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <20180827015422.lcq44zvsjffeau4j@Ergus> <83a7p76f5e.fsf@gnu.org> <87lg8p9o6y.fsf@russet.org.uk> <83pnxx1foj.fsf@gnu.org> <87bm9d9zs9.fsf@russet.org.uk> <87efe75v02.fsf@toy.adminart.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1536309998 17169 195.159.176.226 (7 Sep 2018 08:46:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 08:46:38 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (gnu/linux) Cc: eliz@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, spacibba@aol.com, phillip.lord@russet.org.uk To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Sep 07 10:46:34 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fyCPR-0004NI-PQ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 10:46:34 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:37453 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fyCRU-0004Ov-TJ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 04:48:44 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:42472) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fyCPa-0002iO-Tc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 04:46:43 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fyCPZ-0008DI-Nm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 04:46:42 -0400 Original-Received: from mo6-p01-ob.smtp.rzone.de ([2a01:238:20a:202:5301::1]:34526) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fyCPZ-00085E-Cj; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 04:46:41 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1536310000; s=strato-dkim-0002; d=adminart.net; h=References:Message-ID:Date:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From: X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH:From:Subject:Sender; bh=ioBnHRd2ZPwYi8GkNQQLQiALM67RN+AYV9n4LhM7u7k=; b=VLvMt6n1SrSqvuT2m0xShu/uTb2sAvVwnfZN12h7u6KSRzCXJKNpihDs3XVmCdL3/G ogVHVxF5ZIJ1rhvw+FI04IB4lRptBFBFHDMZGsBnNuq1yzzcpsDCTx1ThvSFBxZ+WFkt bCy/wju7IKbW1GzE48PrjP/jxE4XaEbR75vF1D84m1GZPB9CLxQdQt4py/hlFpuscG2K iAS70L+tybv8EhK7KAIRRg4kIcwv3UMF99jiW3ccGM2XKBww84uum6LtDgqlV7LiySkk zZvEpZ9jcuDL011DVn82XbJzVDFXRRNREd1jXThmB4WQrVfl69u7qkcLdk5/MiInV+mt lUfQ== X-RZG-AUTH: ":O2kGeEG7b/pS1FS4THaxjVF9w0vVgfQ9xGcjwO5WMRo5c+h5ceMqQWZ3yrBp+AVdIIwXjneEe9k=" X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Original-Received: from himinbjorg.adminart.net by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 44.0 DYNA|AUTH) with ESMTPSA id e03b99u878jjB2K (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (curve secp521r1 with 521 ECDH bits, eq. 15360 bits RSA)) (Client did not present a certificate); Fri, 7 Sep 2018 10:45:45 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from toy.adminart.net ([192.168.3.55]) by himinbjorg.adminart.net with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1fyCOe-0000o0-Fx; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 10:45:44 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Fri, 07 Sep 2018 02:39:41 -0400") X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2a01:238:20a:202:5301::1 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229382 Archived-At: Richard Stallman writes: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > Why can they not edit efficiently with Emacs without learning the > > movement keys described in the tutorial? > > What alternative would be better? Arrow keys require moving your hands > away from the center. Moving the graphical pointer, even more so. The arrow keys (that includes PgUp and PgDown and Home and End) in combination with C-a and C-e are better. That's all I use for moving around. For example, to press C-u, I have to move my left hand over to the left to press the left Ctrl key, and then my right hand moves one key over to the left to press U because I'm not on the rows anymore anyway. You might say it's not efficient. It is how nowadays keyboards are. C-u is difficult to press, and the chance of hitting an unwanted key when trying that is very high. It is like the most inefficient way to scroll up. Add to that that Emacs is the only program with such key bindings, and it is not efficient when I need to think differently with every program about how to move the cursor. When I move the cursor around, I'm thinking about what I've been writing. I do not need my fingers to be on the home rows then. > > There is much more to learn about Emacs than key bindings for cursor > > movement, and the movement keys in the tutorial may be amongst the least > > relevant things that help efficient editing. > > Please give more detail. Think of all the modes. They all come with their own key bidings. I'm using org for only two things: editing tables and hiding stuff with '*'. The only specific key binding I know is C-c SPc because it the only one I need, and it makes editing tables much more efficient. I've been using org-mode for years and found out about this key binding only a few weeks ago because I happened to frequently delete a cells content and thought there should be an easier way to do that. Emacs can work with CVS systems like git. I haven't found yet out how to make use of this feature, yet I'm sure there are lots of key bindings that make editing source code much more efficient when you are using CVS systems. Gnus comes with a lot of key bindings without which you can't edit your emails (unless you use the menu perhaps). Think of many functions you may more or less frequently use, like query-replace, indent-region, sort-lines .... Some of them may have key bindings, but I use ESC-x and call them name. There are only so many key bindings one can remember. Think of bookmarks and registers. They are essential for moving around. So I would consider key bindings to move the cursor around as a non-issue and put those into their own tutorial about "special key bindings". In an "important key bindings" tutorial, I would mention C-a and C-e and ESC-< and ESC-> because they are extremely useful not only for Emacs, and because when in a terminal, Cltr-End and Ctrl-Home don't work. And I would point to registers and bookmarks, and make a tutorial about them if tutorials were categorized like "move around", "do this", "do that".