From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Joost Kremers Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: delete-selection-mode as default (WAS: Some developement questions) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2018 22:39:54 +0200 Message-ID: <87sh2ih0bp.fsf@fastmail.fm> References: <83k1nxvm5j.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1536525537 25654 195.159.176.226 (9 Sep 2018 20:38:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 20:38:57 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: mu4e 1.1.0; emacs 26.1.50 Cc: hw@adminart.net, spacibba@aol.com, Noam Postavsky , emacs-devel@gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, phillip.lord@russet.org.uk To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Sep 09 22:38:52 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fz6Tp-0006Y1-W1 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 09 Sep 2018 22:38:50 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:48665 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fz6Vw-0000oE-0B for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 09 Sep 2018 16:41:00 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:33131) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fz6Vm-0000o4-F7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 09 Sep 2018 16:40:54 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fz6V0-0004Jg-2A for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 09 Sep 2018 16:40:02 -0400 Original-Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.25]:39285) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fz6Uv-0004Gn-It; Sun, 09 Sep 2018 16:39:57 -0400 Original-Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 247FE21B62; Sun, 9 Sep 2018 16:39:57 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 09 Sep 2018 16:39:57 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fastmail.fm; h= cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=q1DFjFfKpaoazcTwaADFhql/A9Wck QfuoPPtRpCw57k=; b=ZZzGf1iRu3cVrQK6eZQwJOo34/NGPHobQFpK9IXR1xcRo Jn5iZpxbu24toBbh3p/xKj0r+OamXjwWr/pxO+Aes9R3wPFxtP8hv1GXSZsv/ksd 34LOWUFlUDNQhHtRAAdcBUgnsXhC3itKhy/x9PNGdHhbliOc8oWs5wJSd/8LwiFX l4OHyaLMyIgCnCs/N1vwSRi8fclSqBh7jXGKK9oMFDY1GODwS31gx9CjlLEiulUq n1odLAZTnYFZ1QBszL1yMMKcdPdiS0jfEJjzsYIUTUv5hFBFT6w2ltEEu1orXnOM nbFShfx16zkkpyTbcfY1fXZhAq/rg7sO4jfA/T2IQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=q1DFjF fKpaoazcTwaADFhql/A9WckQfuoPPtRpCw57k=; b=rMnjUlu8DNB9mOExIoiDjw +ojE88uv+Z1icYkhyt0FpGgtlutuntx73dxuCwKgoH7x4yJoeUuGXQpZ1NcVKQNm GWtBMYvSEDzVU65MkDX4Km5zkIH7eBMC0AR3SxDXzsWHf1MYk5Q7nApA5cWrSSNA wfpIb8OC6C3bv4iIhcY6C4+4G3aH8fO7Q7MUtopvXmlScXKcHB+FvBXxRnXwpdvK /5KrvmvVem1Y04ufby2lnm4VhG0sn/ErgFQqvER8xFro9JyiqMPrRYWHGnRUuYwN mFNygDNamJ0NLVdhbzxnsHML1wULytb1jdntTiWrqu6oWg3nheYkxfbPElJVWV4A == X-ME-Proxy: X-ME-Sender: Original-Received: from IdeaPad.fastmail.com (ip5f5ac93d.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de [95.90.201.61]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 5E38C10298; Sun, 9 Sep 2018 16:39:55 -0400 (EDT) In-reply-to: <83k1nxvm5j.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 66.111.4.25 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229575 Archived-At: On Fri, Sep 07 2018, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > Feel free to start a user poll, though: if it turns out I'm the=20 > only > one who thinks delete-selection-mode is inappropriate in=20 > programming > modes, we can make it the default; I can easily turn it off in=20 > my > configuration. Though I would urge people to actually try this=20 > in > programming modes before responding, and in any case the poll=20 > should > request to provide the major modes used with the responses. My =E2=82=AC0.02: I'd say this thread has already shown that a poll won't=20 be of much help here. Whether you prefer `delete-selection-mode`=20 on or off really depends on your workflow, and de fluminibus=20 operis non est disputandum, to paraphrase a well-known adage. So I'd suggest that any decision regarding the default value of=20 `delete-selection-mode` should not be based on such=20 considerations. Rather, two questions should be considered: a)=20 "Would leaving it off scare away potential new users?" and b)=20 "Would turning it on obscure an option that is potentially useful=20 to at least a subset of new users?" I suspect the answer to both questions is "yes". If you're trying=20 out a new piece of software, any behaviour that differs from what=20 you're used to (after all, what `delete-selection-mode` does is=20 standard behaviour in most software out there and most new users=20 will take it for granted) is off-putting and might lead you to=20 give up, especially if it's not immediately clear why the=20 behaviour is different. On the other hand, if `delete-selection-mode` is on by default,=20 most, if not all, new users will never even consider the=20 possibility that Emacs has the option to disable it and that that=20 might actually fit their workflow better. All in all, despite having `delete-selection-mode` on myself, I=20 think it should be kept off by default, but with a note in the=20 tutorial somewhere that it can be turned on. Or perhaps it could=20 be made such that the first time a new user types a character with=20 an active region, a message pops up saying that Emacs doesn't=20 normally overwrite an active region, with an explanation why and a=20 note that it can be configured to do so if desired. It would be=20 similar to how disabled commands work (though IIUC it couldn't be=20 implemented easily as a disabled command, so adding such a=20 mechanism might not be trivial). --=20 Joost Kremers Life has its moments