From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Phillip Lord Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: dash.el [was: Re: Imports / inclusion of s.el into Emacs] Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 22:38:31 +0100 Message-ID: <87sgg4bzqg.fsf@russet.org.uk> References: <35DBF02E-44D7-41E5-A217-7D6EC84ED221@icloud.com> <83d07984ux.fsf@gnu.org> <87y2pxcb85.fsf@russet.org.uk> <831rnp82rv.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="108507"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cc: rms@gnu.org, joostkremers@fastmail.fm, Emacs-devel@gnu.org, ams@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, pcr910303@icloud.com To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue May 12 23:39:10 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jYccI-000S3x-8h for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 12 May 2020 23:39:10 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41650 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYccH-00025e-Ai for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 12 May 2020 17:39:09 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:36962) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYcbm-0001fM-UE for Emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 12 May 2020 17:38:38 -0400 Original-Received: from cloud103.planethippo.com ([78.129.138.110]:60676) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYcbl-00020w-3Z; Tue, 12 May 2020 17:38:38 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=russet.org.uk; s=default; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID: In-Reply-To:Date:References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=N7aBNQvUTP6Ks6nWEY7440lncKfUqo6ksZ5KFowko7M=; b=kakMKSDGeQiAO2ne8nUIQKsrc Hjtc9DrVc+kSlm0Et2KQPYjIBD30SaxYIG+GqY/NwqZa2zjjccGGdf/muINh6glS+gp1cHOgL6n9n KNvTD5RMZnqL+hOltCjQ0XSZLUCEE3Ye7EfAMEj9Vq0gWa+pZ0oVR1LYepyPw9oNRGOzO5tSU7Fe0 R42iWa/G8pT1nrZagsiJ1EYBGl3D+4S+XtPvmAW1+nhQcnmmXrpipfFkkBqrzJ8486IeGGoNuuWGM hFe14AjSirLHc/2mxzT01tNuAGi/EV3HUf3IVyTxwMNPRGnvH4SMtL2rESynOJd+MDETHC2jvZTQ3 5gXf7/huQ==; Original-Received: from cpc142652-benw12-2-0-cust953.16-2.cable.virginm.net ([82.21.43.186]:52790 helo=russet.org.uk) by cloud103.planethippo.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1jYcbg-0002XL-KU; Tue, 12 May 2020 22:38:32 +0100 In-Reply-To: <831rnp82rv.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Tue, 12 May 2020 20:46:28 +0300") X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - cloud103.planethippo.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnu.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - russet.org.uk X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: cloud103.planethippo.com: authenticated_id: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk X-Authenticated-Sender: cloud103.planethippo.com: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk Received-SPF: none client-ip=78.129.138.110; envelope-from=phillip.lord@russet.org.uk; helo=cloud103.planethippo.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/12 17:20:43 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:250052 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Phillip Lord >> Cc: Stefan Monnier , rms@gnu.org, >> joostkremers@fastmail.fm, ams@gnu.org, pcr910303@icloud.com, >> Emacs-devel@gnu.org >> Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 18:30:18 +0100 >> >> Perhaps, if the people doing this work saw that their work was >> gratefully accepted, and allowed to continue doing it with the minimum >> of fuss and not too much design by committee, then they would continue >> doing it. > > Is this what you think of how I'm doing my job for Emacs? All I'm > doing here, most of the time, is make sure the code we get from > various contributions is up to our standards. You seem to be saying > that I'm harming the project by doing so, because that drives the > contributors away. Would you like me to step down? Eli No, I wouldn't want you to step down, and this was not directed specifically at you. Overall, emacs-devel is a fairly conservative place, though. That, combined with a slow and onerous copyright assignment proceedure (proceedure not policy: the proceedure could be fixed without changing policy), means that the ecosystem outside core is richer than inside. I believe that this produces a relatively poor new user experience. Tools like magit, or CIDER draw people in; and for developers of Emacs packages dash.el does the same. But people have to know that they are there; as it stands, a new developer picking Emacs would assuming it does not do Clojure, or Rust, or GO, or autocompletion, or lsp. I watch my students faced with Emacs and this is just too much of a struggle. I understand why you worry about code quality, and this is valid. I think most of Magnar's code has proven itself; the usage stats speak for themselves. If packages like this do not meet Emacs standards, perhaps, this it is Emacs standards that need to change to fit. Phil