From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ricardo Wurmus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changes for emacs 28 Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 06:52:05 +0200 Message-ID: <87sgbo3oga.fsf@elephly.net> References: <87y2lkb6kb.fsf@gmail.com> <9A4FA038-CCFD-45DF-8B57-E348AFF951D9@gmail.com> <87sgbsb0eb.fsf@gmail.com> <87h7s6c31d.fsf@gmail.com> <87een96fpw.fsf@elephly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="7971"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: mu4e 1.4.13; emacs 27.1 Cc: ghe@sdf.org, casouri@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, tecosaur@gmail.com To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Sep 11 06:51:33 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kGb24-0001wt-DS for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 06:51:32 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41724 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kGb23-0000cX-Ev for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 00:51:31 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:46278) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kGb1Y-0000B5-Mp for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 00:51:00 -0400 Original-Received: from sender4-of-o51.zoho.com ([136.143.188.51]:21135) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kGb1W-0007K1-Lx; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 00:51:00 -0400 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1599799855; cv=none; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; b=VOtVgV1KjZAvXcNR33lp2iKepad7eRfymxf3y24MFZb9BTrowzsQE/IO296CEKO7xg5wyMPQHYV5VkMKIgQAkToUuWm5im/yWSZzy17vJczwNTonMukfredEOMiEizCQPODZYe977ElCvGTnVFNnNBPdm0DZlR6ilY2xAnvHz24= ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; t=1599799855; h=Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Date:From:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Message-ID:References:Subject:To; bh=31p097WuU0Ei7BShnQnJBMs2+vT8lYgINSgiNHW5YL8=; b=iz5A0RtkaysGgQWcDAnBqSUyA9yCZrcbS0ypYws7E1Vp5u885M6BnbyGw4ByUc1vj9X4Rt4l14RYGzv6eDeMyrTTz5mhEqrWfkvJkzRq0s+eCqu3Nny0THW6yfnTWG7oymjtXl5MEWtjRUzFC7mZ0q6q77i/C63bQGtctk1Vh7A= ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.zohomail.com; dkim=pass header.i=elephly.net; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=rekado@elephly.net; dmarc=pass header.from= header.from= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1599799855; s=zoho; d=elephly.net; i=rekado@elephly.net; h=References:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-reply-to:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; bh=31p097WuU0Ei7BShnQnJBMs2+vT8lYgINSgiNHW5YL8=; b=Q5uRfhmhFUD2zxkclGHSPanlu0SmsBi5L+ijbXdb40wiMwiZNNgkWEbQvUyvivY2 /zhj52fBvqFt0z/3FSFPZyOrAcaeLUU0m3hmTFnwcOPr/l7EfeKDFTcb5/MN+SfGInG QGvpgKCGULQLx4fc1j6T/r9dFuYF2znM7bjLP9iU= Original-Received: from localhost (p54ad420a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.173.66.10]) by mx.zohomail.com with SMTPS id 1599799852339661.8795648205063; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 21:50:52 -0700 (PDT) In-reply-to: X-URL: https://elephly.net X-PGP-Key: https://elephly.net/rekado.pubkey X-PGP-Fingerprint: BCA6 89B6 3655 3801 C3C6 2150 197A 5888 235F ACAC X-ZohoMailClient: External Received-SPF: pass client-ip=136.143.188.51; envelope-from=rekado@elephly.net; helo=sender4-of-o51.zoho.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/11 00:50:56 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:255090 Archived-At: Richard Stallman writes: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > At that point their initial enthusiasm has all but disappeared and th= ey > > glance over to their colleagues who use Rstudio or Atom (in 2017) or > > that proprietary editor Sublime. Everything seems so easy and > > approachable and just as extensible. They see their colleague use Git > > from within Rstudio and wonder if they=E2=80=99d ever get to that poi= nt if they > > will first have to configure Emacs to do all the basic things first. > > The tone of that text seems harsh -- it feels like venting hostility. > Would you like to make some constructive suggestions? This is certainly not meant to come across as harsh. It is a description of what I have observed dozens of times while watching people who had initial enthusiasm to try out Emacs, only to realize that it requires much more time to get started than they imagined. At that point they have mentally moved on and are already on the lookout for something else that gets them close to what they had been looking for initially =E2=80=94 even if that falls short of what they could have reached with Emacs. I agree with what others have pointed out earlier, namely that a lack of pre-configuration of features such as automatic completion as you type and more helpful matching and suggestion of inputs at dreaded empty prompts would go a long way to reduce what is seen as an intimidating amount of configuration that users would have to perform for features that are readily available in most editors and IDEs (and of course Emacs, once configured). This drop in initial enthusiasm and motivation is real and closely linked to defaults. It is also why I shifted to recommend Spacemacs (for people familiar with Vim) or Doom Emacs (for all others), because people can dive right into the interesting stuff without getting bogged down at the worst time: while learning something that is completely foreign to them. --=20 Ricardo