From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Augusto Stoffel Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Increase default `line-spacing' to 0.05, 0.10 or 0.15 [proposal] Date: Thu, 06 May 2021 11:26:45 +0200 Message-ID: <87sg30usa2.fsf@gmail.com> References: <871ramlbpy.fsf@telefonica.net> <87fsz1zmhv.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="25049"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.2 (gnu/linux) Cc: Jim Porter , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Stefan Kangas Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu May 06 11:35:48 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1leaQ6-0006G2-PH for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 06 May 2021 11:35:46 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54146 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1leaQ5-0003fw-RL for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 06 May 2021 05:35:45 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:36770) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1leaHT-0004wR-Ni for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 06 May 2021 05:26:52 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-ej1-x62b.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::62b]:43677) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1leaHR-0005BU-QD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 06 May 2021 05:26:51 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-ej1-x62b.google.com with SMTP id l4so7218010ejc.10 for ; Thu, 06 May 2021 02:26:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version; bh=GVWxPLkO6wgUkbXN0XHAslbZNSxH4FhFLWkTR4GkrLo=; b=cPALYHDLASrs4n1QDxfZ2CNkawFC4Fqqfpq2YA5HPFK9671sEb3DZSpKzWcjWXotF7 UGdZ/HTHP1T72VKgNovp+DMbBxsGtLKfKUQ7FF+m5IHceQw5OOgn2pb3VjQoBm+yax5Y NUKgNSY73QY9MNszihAFFX1OSQqrFYlfPV1RVjzT2DeYlFWcp+apn+NyE1xw3Dc2x6VR taloaZcD62HmsplMkTZ5p7HQJiV98bAB8z6PqfCsobVf8QxTE9jynUylvhGyFIW4FJ5r Lg4TfDryT6pSMcHaktUbckRBKkpqyi0qYFpr9EM4f747bLpdezjKNQ4Wf6O32ZX2yfJw Osog== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=GVWxPLkO6wgUkbXN0XHAslbZNSxH4FhFLWkTR4GkrLo=; b=ZdRqpRB1sVflA2l0qKpWO2siIxlqOmrHEQkxbwZC1TRYPy6xD5V6XUjNNoVS6PD9mi zMgtz3hNIN3XX35x8vtouUnolQV76aUMvoIIhTYVbMkPBzaRLaRSvlMX3J7oTJ/vLIU4 ugO/jBj0Z0GMun5Ozrt+zTStbIRN05ZfNHRzjWEhHb5Mov36uu1/RK+ivO0Uq/G7tNfW YFXZR4mxFwxoGrB11SKSSsBKYhRqlJnXkWj9A4PJygUENeIJ6dG7Inlia2mQs51mZnPt yQZFsEl2i2erq8XIdrUxc6gX6oasrt9MI1yxdEIS1SawmZK4KWohOJUKymfqbW+yV4Hg YZGw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532G1HBbm8N2JwOMCTIZ+t+6G2vEqOeZuxOVvOtTDwRHjV3Jz3yg 2UbIz2Czvsu8zQvxrfgFDcez7FYOTTE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyXjJBE2UtTmoefCh14cqFDv2P/i36lxrfLuVISGWROuXmR1IzL48TM1Ouo+1jU7u2eNXhrGw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:170f:: with SMTP id c15mr3344835eje.358.1620293207153; Thu, 06 May 2021 02:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from ars3 ([2a02:908:2211:8540::68a]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id rs8sm1005390ejb.17.2021.05.06.02.26.45 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 06 May 2021 02:26:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: (Stefan Kangas's message of "Wed, 5 May 2021 14:47:40 -0500") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::62b; envelope-from=arstoffel@gmail.com; helo=mail-ej1-x62b.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:268956 Archived-At: On Wed, 5 May 2021 at 14:47, Stefan Kangas wrote: > Augusto Stoffel writes: > >> In normal typography you are free to choose how much space to add >> between lines, but the horizontal condensedness is a fixed >> characteristic of the font. > > In a sense, you are free to choose vertical spacing however you want. > But a lot of time and effort has been invested into figuring out how to > choose line height (leading) wisely. It is generally a good idea to try > to adhere to such best practices. Comparing the picture in [1] and what I see if I put the block cursor over an "H", I conclude that monospaced fonts come with some built-in leading. In other words, they are "bastard fonts" [2], and a nil for `line-spacing' doesn't mean "solid" typesetting. Does that mean the built-in leading is optimal, or a good default? Not necessarily, of course. I wrote mostly to point out that changing the line spacing breaks any fancy box-drawing. I'm not claiming this is more important than the other considerations you made, by the way. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_height_(typography) [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leading#Bastard_fonts > In body text, horizontal spacing is generally determined by the typeface > itself. However, in certain situations we do need to use kerning, and > even tracking (letter-spacing). So I don't exactly understand why you > consider this more of a "fixed characteristic" than vertical spacing. Kerning, tracking and other forms of microtypography are case-by-case adjustments, intended to be basically subliminal, so I'd say yes, the overall condensedness is pretty much a fixed characteristic of the font. And these things are out of reach for Emacs anyway. Leading is a global, visible design choice. That's why I made the distinction.