From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Karl Fogel Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.xemacs.beta,gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Permission to use portions of the recent GNU Emacs Manual Date: 11 Dec 2004 18:26:13 -0600 Message-ID: <87r7lw9xay.fsf@floss.red-bean.com> References: <87k6rollef.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org> Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com NNTP-Posting-Host: deer.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1102811293 17926 80.91.229.6 (12 Dec 2004 00:28:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 00:28:13 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Alan Mackenzie , emacs-devel@gnu.org, Richard Stallman , xemacs-beta@xemacs.org Original-X-From: xemacs-beta-bounces@xemacs.org Sun Dec 12 01:28:07 2004 Return-path: Original-Received: from gwyn.tux.org ([199.184.165.135] ident=ident-user) by deer.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1CdHap-0004kN-00 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 2004 01:28:07 +0100 Original-Received: from gwyn.tux.org (ident-user@localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by gwyn.tux.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iBC0QLkv019386; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 19:26:22 -0500 Original-Received: from gwyn.tux.org (ident-user@localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by gwyn.tux.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iBC0QJrh019376 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 19:26:19 -0500 Original-Received: (from xemacweb@localhost) by gwyn.tux.org (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id iBC0QJX7019375 for xemacs-beta-mailman@xemacs.org; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 19:26:19 -0500 Original-Received: from gwyn.tux.org (ident-user@localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by gwyn.tux.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iBC0QIms019364 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 19:26:18 -0500 Original-Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by gwyn.tux.org (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id iBC0QHFB019363 for xemacweb@tux.org; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 19:26:17 -0500 Original-Received: from pimout6-ext.prodigy.net (pimout6-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.63.78]) by gwyn.tux.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id iBC0QGo6019358 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 19:26:16 -0500 Original-Received: from floss.red-bean.com (adsl-66-73-172-37.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net [66.73.172.37]) by pimout6-ext.prodigy.net (8.12.10 milter /8.12.10) with ESMTP id iBC0Pxlp283822; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 19:26:06 -0500 Original-Received: from kfogel by floss.red-bean.com with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1CdHYz-0008Ft-00; Sat, 11 Dec 2004 18:26:13 -0600 Original-To: Stefan Monnier Emacs: ed :: 20-megaton hydrogen bomb : firecracker In-Reply-To: <87k6rollef.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org> Original-Lines: 32 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3.50 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.80/622/Wed Dec 8 08:36:53 2004 clamav-milter version 0.80j on gwyn.tux.org X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.80/622/Wed Dec 8 08:36:53 2004 clamav-milter version 0.80j on gwyn.tux.org X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.80/622/Wed Dec 8 08:36:53 2004 clamav-milter version 0.80j on gwyn.tux.org X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.80/622/Wed Dec 8 08:36:53 2004 clamav-milter version 0.80j on gwyn.tux.org X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean X-XEmacs-List: beta X-BeenThere: xemacs-beta@xemacs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: XEmacs Beta Testers List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: xemacs-beta-bounces@xemacs.org Errors-To: xemacs-beta-bounces@xemacs.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.xemacs.beta:17408 gmane.emacs.devel:31014 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:31014 Stefan Monnier writes: > I don't see any benefit from using the GFDL over the GPL that would justify > the downside of preventing the XEmacs people from using our documentation. > [ Unless we consider that as an upside, but I really don't see any good > reason why we should be so antagonizing. ] Similarly, the licensing problems > it can cause when extracting docs and doc-skeletons out of code > is worrisome. I agree. It is bad that our docs are license-incompatible with XEmacs's GPL'd docs. It is also confusing how the GFDL interacts with extracted docs from non-GFDL code, as you point out. In general, the GFDL's requirements take a great deal of time and concentration to understand (this is heard so often, from so many, that I trust it is uncontroversial now). This makes the GFDL problematic for reference documentation like the Emacs manual, because such documentation gets small, lightweight contributions from many different people. The burden of simply *understanding* the GFDL significantly raises the overhead of making an individual contribution. I am reluctant to contribute to the Emacs manual under the GFDL. I feel like my contributions are going into a restrictive pool, where many will not be able to make use of them. Apparently, Alan Mackenzie feels this way too. I wonder how many others? No one who works on Emacs would be reluctant to contribute to a GPL'd manual, I'll bet. -Karl