From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Karl Fogel Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Copyright/Distribution questions (Emacs/Orgmode) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:35:57 -0500 Message-ID: <87r4jjks82.fsf@kwarm.red-bean.com> References: <87ober717z.fsf@gmail.com> <87a9q8xt5b.fsf@gmail.com> <83ehfkjocu.fsf@gnu.org> Reply-To: Karl Fogel NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1363203378 7987 80.91.229.3 (13 Mar 2013 19:36:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 19:36:18 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Jambunathan K To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Mar 13 20:36:41 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1UFrTd-0000wX-EG for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:36:41 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41258 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1UFrTG-0002pD-Tk for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:36:18 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:58681) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1UFrT9-0002nv-3b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:36:16 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1UFrSy-00085G-SX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:36:11 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-ia0-x236.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4001:c02::236]:49628) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1UFrSy-00084q-NM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 15:36:00 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-ia0-f182.google.com with SMTP id b35so1310725iac.13 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:35:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:reply-to:date :in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=SSvCEtGVAxIHNC7mUNTf4KaOepmIX9fh5EkwcHOsHXI=; b=i8ll4EodiXg80R3Qs+PeFKII+4DhE2cqZMbkqkRowpkXzdHpeDYkzntJbAEab3FzvG Q2XdSCumIKfM72VePLKGaxzSCA7sRcO9TwNR+W4+h7DphjqEuNg2JhzGLhKLvlZ/Lj40 n0BdRtgmW96mhTIwszkhlxAjBQ7qKxw1zoXFY5+AoioQyeUmk+AqahnT8ULlEjJRgRTa cRQ7KXqMmhFH7z2bwxl3zi/jVZoPbSqYo30PAX1OpzWj7H1SgY8Lt2Equ5kw9qT5CQsU ZMzcENZnaZSAPay+W89oF3JFwtkWKCSNyiH3i3AviyTGfiCN10Cy/fxXZN1iJw+s8dOG u6Sg== X-Received: by 10.50.196.130 with SMTP id im2mr16760591igc.90.1363203359830; Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:35:59 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from kwarm.red-bean.com (74-92-190-113-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net. [74.92.190.113]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id xf4sm4304076igb.8.2013.03.13.12.35.57 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:35:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83ehfkjocu.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Tue, 12 Mar 2013 23:32:33 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4001:c02::236 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:157825 Archived-At: +1 to what Glenn and Eli said. Normally, I'd just invoke http://donotfeedtheenergybeast.com/ and refrain from further comment! But there's something that should be made clear to Jambunathan and, more importantly, to other Org and Emacs developers: When J. Random Developer makes a copyright assignment to the FSF, it is a signal to everyone that jrandom's commits are now worth some extra investment: more time spent on code review, more participation in design discussion, bug reporting, further dependent changes, etc. The changes Jambunathan has committed so far are changes that other people have *already* invested in. Everyone was assured that the changes had cleared the purely procedural hurdles to becoming part of Emacs, and everyone acted based on that assurance. Jambunathan can't just retroactively undo that -- others have already counted on it. If he wants to withdraw his copyright assignment for future changes -- changes that have not yet hit any public repository, where people might invest their own time into those changes -- I guess he could do that. But the idea that he can retroactively cause people to have wasted time is ridiculous. The changes he's contributed so far are covered by his past commitment, and we should rely on commitment whether he wants us to or not. It's clear from looking at the Org Mode dev thread and this conversation that he would never be chosen by any other developers as the Org Mode maintainer. It's equally clear that he is capable of disrupting development and wasting everyone's time. I don't know first-hand how important his future technical contributions might be, but unless the answer is "incredibly crucial", the best thing the projects could do would be to - Accept no further changes from him. - Don't let him post on the dev mailing lists any more, period. I hope the Org and Emacs maintainers will do the above. This similar instance from over a decade ago might be a useful comparison: http://producingoss.com/en/difficult-people.html#difficult-people-case-study -Karl Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Jambunathan K >> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 01:55:20 +0530 >> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org >> >> > If these are the kinds of games you like to play, then my proposal >> > (it's not up to me though) to resolve the issue is that we stop >> > accepting contributions of any kind from you to Emacs. This would >> > save us having to waste time on this. >> >> How clear are you? I am confused. You are arguing for not having >> ox-html.el and ox-odt.el in Emacs or are you arguing for it? > >He is arguing for you to shut up and go away, if that's not clear. No >amount of word games can conceal your ill will and selfish, >self-serving conduct. It is clear to everyone here, believe me. It >didn't begin today, either. Cut your losses and get lost. > >> I am talking about a contract that I signed and seeking clarifications. > >This is not the proper place to talk about that. Please talk to the >FSF personnel, who are the only ones that can give you authoritative >answers anyway. The Emacs and Org maintainers will do whatever the >FSF personnel decide on that matter and instruct us to do.