From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs Lisp's future Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2014 18:16:50 +0200 Message-ID: <87r3yjam8d.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> References: <54193A70.9020901@member.fsf.org> <87wq8pwjen.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <837g0ptnlj.fsf@gnu.org> <87r3yxwdr6.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87tx3tmi3t.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <834mvttgsf.fsf@gnu.org> <87lhp5m99w.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87h9ztm5oa.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87d2ahm3nw.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <871tqneyvl.fsf@netris.org> <871tqlubqe.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87lhosso3m.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <878ukrsx62.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1412699127 18512 80.91.229.3 (7 Oct 2014 16:25:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2014 16:25:27 +0000 (UTC) Cc: rms@gnu.org, mhw@netris.org, dmantipov@yandex.ru, emacs-devel@gnu.org, handa@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, eliz@gnu.org To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Oct 07 18:25:25 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1XbXZk-0004jh-Eb for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 07 Oct 2014 18:25:24 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:59828 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XbXZk-00029H-20 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 07 Oct 2014 12:25:24 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:41626) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XbXZK-0001k9-UV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Oct 2014 12:24:59 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XbXZJ-0006HR-LO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Oct 2014 12:24:58 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:44028) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XbXZJ-0006HJ-Hg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Oct 2014 12:24:57 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51195 helo=lola) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XbXZC-0006cL-B4; Tue, 07 Oct 2014 12:24:50 -0400 Original-Received: by lola (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 93A59E0545; Tue, 7 Oct 2014 18:16:50 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: <878ukrsx62.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> (Stephen J. Turnbull's message of "Wed, 08 Oct 2014 00:43:17 +0900") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.4.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:175084 Archived-At: "Stephen J. Turnbull" writes: > Richard Stallman writes: > > > To put it another way, Mark said that Guile is intended to be useful > > writing servers as well as interactive programs. > > > > This discussion is about Guile in the context of Emacs specifically. > > "What Guile does" generally is a different, though related, topic. > > Guile could follow the Unicode spec in normal operation, but offer > > another mode that Emacs can use. > > It *could*, but it for the default is entirely unclear to me that it > *should*. Some use cases, such as AUCTeX parsing error messages from > TeX (which treats content quoted from the document as bytes, and so > may slice characters into two invalid byte sequences), will use some > sort of reversible encoding of raw bytes (the current Emacs encoding > is one option, of course). But they can do that explicitly. Not really. The terminal/log output will in general reflect the encoding of the source document and it is human-readable, so you want the output filter to generally decode as utf-8. Now TeX may indeed choose to slice multibyte characters in two (for example, because it inserts newlines in its output every 79 bytes). Parsing the error messages properly requires the ability to reconstruct the input before the output filter decoded it. Neither having the output filter pass everything as bytes (that will make the output generally unfit for human consumption rather than just in single places) nor "sanitizing" it (that will make reconstruction of the original context impossible) are satisfactory here. The "I know you don't want me to produce anything other than utf-8 anyway" attitude is just getting in the way of such application needs. Sometimes things are messy, and it must remain the application's choice how it wants the mess to be dealt with. > However, in general I think that Emacs should help users who are naive > about Unicode to avoid emitting invalid Unicode, and so should default > to querying the user for permission if that were about to happen. It > should not silently pass on corrupt input to the output. You are confusing Emacs with the applications running on it. It is not the job of an engine to make the decisions for an application. In general, an engine should deal with the problems you tell it to deal with. -- David Kastrup