From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ivan Shmakov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: On being web-friendly and why info must die Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 14:56:42 +0000 Message-ID: <87r3wem9g5.fsf@violet.siamics.net> References: <20141205123549.GA29331@thyrsus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1417791441 27907 80.91.229.3 (5 Dec 2014 14:57:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 14:57:21 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Dec 05 15:57:17 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1XwuJo-0000mj-9w for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 15:57:16 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:50784 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XwuJn-0003QZ-AV for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 09:57:15 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:55171) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XwuJg-0003QT-3u for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 09:57:12 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XwuJe-0002Pk-Ji for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 09:57:08 -0500 Original-Received: from fely.am-1.org ([2a01:4f8:d15:1b86::2]:49778) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XwuJe-0002MQ-74 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 09:57:06 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=siamics.net; s=a2013295; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date:Sender:References:Subject:To:From; bh=eqoFslHBhZV5kVQTEMecq+5IWV+8NNWlgC2nCcMajuQ=; b=kzJfsQZ/7aAK+n0QHF7OGiCe3biP6Tv02Pw9mJPa89XuplDhZIGTbzOjOkKNA1COJZnynN3n+nEld3+lNmxgQgCYnchEm3ashdTUlBm//peQR0stMWXdh2iU8WvKxDCgTtHWZq/dyv20MW4InbiH12SmvgBCk0rG6m/hzGkuX4M=; Original-Received: from [2a02:2560:6d4:26ca::1:1d] (helo=violet.siamics.net) by fely.am-1.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1XwuJP-0007wT-6f for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 14:56:51 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=violet.siamics.net) by violet.siamics.net with esmtps (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1XwuJH-0008KT-MY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 21:56:43 +0700 Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org In-Reply-To: <20141205123549.GA29331@thyrsus.com> (Eric S. Raymond's message of "Fri, 5 Dec 2014 07:35:49 -0500") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2a01:4f8:d15:1b86::2 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:178935 Archived-At: >>>>> Eric S Raymond writes: [=E2=80=A6] > The positioning problem is that info/Texinfo makes us look like a > steam-powered archaic joke to younger developers. Text-only > presentation with obtrusive links and a complex command set for a > viewer that's *not a web browser*? In 2014? Really? > The capability problem is that the younger developers are objectively > right to laugh. Because these resources are not rendered to Web, > they're an informational ghetto with an impoverished internal link > structure. I disagree on several points. First of all, there /is/ a rendition of the Emacs documentation for Web browsers; see https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/. If there=E2=80=99s anything specific to improve to make Emacs documentation more =E2=80=9CWeb-friendly=E2=80=9D than that, I=E2=80=99d rather be interested= in a list. (And similarly for the majority =E2=80=93 if not all =E2=80=93 GNU project= s I=E2=80=99m personally interested in. Given the well-known disagreement between Debian and GNU regarding the use of invariant sections and cover texts allowed by GNU FDL =E2=80=93 /and/ currently used by several of GNU projects, I happen to use use these Web resources more than just occasionally.) Another point is the presence of the =E2=80=98Info-index=E2=80=99 command = in the Emacs Info browser. I know of no similar feature to be generally available for HTML-based browsers, =E2=80=93 or HTML-based documentation, either. Also, the above made me curious of what exact features of the HTML presentation are felt missing in Info? (In relation to GNU documentation, anyway.) Apart from the above, and given that Emacs now comes with an HTML browser of its own, I doubt that switching from Info-first to HTML-first documentation would affect my own workflow significantly. I=E2=80=99m still concerned over the dependencies (EWW requires Libxml, while Info seem to be rather stand-alone) and performance (Info was started on much less powerful machines than the current =E2=80=9Cusual=E2=80=9D equipment, and presumably will co= ntinue to work there just fine), but I guess these are minor points. (But if we=E2=80=99re really into the =E2=80=9Cpositioning business=E2=80= =9D now, I=E2=80=99d like to refer to this new extensible self-documenting Atom editor. Which, contrary to Emacs, /does/ work in a Web browser. I feel we may lose that battle before even starting it.) > The fact that some of them, like etc/CONTRIBUTE, are plain text with > no link structure at all certainly doesn't help. > The EmacsWiki is a valiant stab at fixing part of the problem, but > its utility is severely damaged by the fact that it can't readily > link inwards to the stuff carried in the distribution. To my mind, the biggest problem with EmacsWiki is the one of obtaining the copyright assignment papers for contributions deemed good enough to be included into Emacs proper. Also, to the best of my knowledge, there=E2=80=99re currently no existing VC backend for EmacsWiki. (There is a crude but working one for MediaWiki, which is the software behind, say, Free Software Directory, Wikibooks and Wikipedia, etc.) [=E2=80=A6] > The policy part of the job will in some ways be more difficult > because the requirements are harder to define. We need to change the > way we think about Emacs's documentation; we need to conceive and > organize it as a single, coherent, richly linked hypertext that > renders to HTML as its major target. I=E2=80=99m unsure if I understand the above. Does it mean that instead of the separate manuals we now have for the Emacs proper, EWW, Gnus, and what not, we would end up with some kind of a Single Ultimate Emacs manual? I=E2=80=99m unsure if I=E2=80=99d welcome such a c= hange, for several reasons. > This may mean giving up on some features supporting rendering to > print manuals; I'm not sure yet. If so, it's time to bite that > bullet. Somehow, I=E2=80=99ve got an impression that HTML-based typesetting is the area yet to be really covered by free software. I=E2=80=99d certainly be interested in the efforts to change that. [=E2=80=A6] --=20 FSF associate member #7257 np. =D0=A1=D0=BD=D0=B0=D1=80=D1=83=D0=B6=D0=B8 = =D0=B2=D1=81=D0=B5=D1=85 =D0=B8=D0=B7=D0=BC=D0=B5=D1=80=D0=B5=D0=BD=D0=B8= =D0=B9 =E2=80=94 =D0=93=D1=80=D0=B0=D0=B6=D0=B4=D0=B0=D0=BD=D1=81=D0=BA=D0= =B0=D1=8F =D0=9E=D0=B1=D0=BE=D1=80=D0=BE=D0=BD=D0=B0