From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: New maintainer Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2015 17:49:20 +0200 Message-ID: <87r3lazla7.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> References: <560CCEBA.9080607@online.de> <874miapdhs.fsf@openmailbox.org> <8737xuuw2y.fsf@rabkins.net> <87lhbmkrle.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87si5r22qh.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <8737xrweel.fsf@googlemail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1443973813 19262 80.91.229.3 (4 Oct 2015 15:50:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 15:50:13 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: jens.k.loewe@googlemail.com (Jens K. Loewe) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Oct 04 17:50:13 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZilY7-0002uY-Pj for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 04 Oct 2015 17:50:08 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:42902 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZilY6-0007y5-PU for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 04 Oct 2015 11:50:06 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:46209) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZilXr-0007vx-1b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 04 Oct 2015 11:49:52 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZilXp-0005Gb-PZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 04 Oct 2015 11:49:50 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:57140) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZilXp-0005GP-M6; Sun, 04 Oct 2015 11:49:49 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42724 helo=lola) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1ZilXo-0002iv-Fa; Sun, 04 Oct 2015 11:49:48 -0400 Original-Received: by lola (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7006BDF433; Sun, 4 Oct 2015 17:49:20 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: <8737xrweel.fsf@googlemail.com> (Jens K. Loewe's message of "Sun, 04 Oct 2015 04:33:54 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:190889 Archived-At: jens.k.loewe@googlemail.com (Jens K. Loewe) writes: > Ah, finally an interesting discussion here. > >> The whole point of GNU is the non-acceptance of software denying >> the users the fundamental software freedoms. > > So GNU does not stand *for* something but *against* something? "Justice" and "fairness" and "freedom" are things that stand fundamentally against letting things run their natural course, downwards. > GNU's whole point is not to be better than others but to point out > that others are worse? Nonsense. GNU's point is to stand for software that is and remains free to share, modify, run, and study. It does not do so in a vacuum: it would not be necessary to take a stand if there was an overall trend to respect user and developer freedom. Taking a stand does not happen in a vacuum. > That reminds me of a kindergarten. > > Furthermore, shouldn't it be the right of a free user to use a > non-free system at his own will? It is the definition of a non-free system that you cannot use it at your own will in many respects. At any rate, freedom does not mean a different prescribed path but a choice. How you use the choice is yours but it is important that you have the choice in the first place. The difference between a home and a prison is not how often you go outside, but whether you can. The point of the GNU project is to support free software. If you are to manage a vegetarian fair and your idea of improvement focuses on the sorely missing hot dog stands and you think a show tannery a great addition, you are out of your depth. That's different from hiring bouncers who keep everybody out wearing leather shows or stuff. But a project manager is not managing the visitors, he is managing the booths and stalls. And regardless of whether he or she likes a nice juicy steak at home, a steak hut does not belong on the fair. And if his main motivation for organizing the fair was getting the best steak hut far and wide, he is a mismatch for the fair, even if 90% of all visitors happen to eat meat at home. GNU has a message, and as a core project manager one cannot afford to ignore it. A church custodian does not need to be devout, but it won't be acceptable to celebrate orgies in the church either. He needs to be aware what the subject of his job and its sensibilities are and deal respectably with it. > I don't use GNU for the sole reason that I get my things done fast on > other platforms, but I solve a lot of problems with FLOSS software > even on closed platforms. Am I a bad guy now? Sounds like a utilitarian to me. I'm not sure why so many people insist they deserve special praise for going the path of least resistance and why they consider people offensive who try doing better than that. I get this sort of defensive-aggressiveness a lot. I'm not interested in the life stories and explanations of people who need to convince themself of something by talking down my life choices. > I actually considered suggesting myself as a maintainer just to > contribute at least something to Emacs. I never wrote "upstream" code > for Emacs but I do that team development thing for money. I guess as a > Windows and BSD user I'm out of the game though - I disagree with some > of the points the GPL makes and I'll always prefer the BSD > infrastructure to GNU; but I really like working with Emacs. However, > it seems that the Emacs product is less important than the Emacs > "philosophy" here. No wonders that you can't find a volunteer for > ethical management on a technical mailing list. Nobody is looking for an "ethical manager" here. The FSF has one already. But even a technical manager needs to be aware of the principles of the GNU project and deal with the tasks responsibly that those imply for the technical management. Stuff like making sure that the respective copyright assignments for contributions are in place, even if neither the manager nor the contributor believes in them, making sure that the policies with regard to software only available for specific platforms are heeded, and even making sure that stuff like plugin interfaces is done in a manner consistent with the discussions with Richard and other key persons. That can mean that a technical manager not invested into GNU's philosophy will likely have to deal with a few things he considers technically awkward. That's hopefully a minuscule part of the job, but when it does occur it still needs to be done in a responsible and responsive manner. -- David Kastrup