From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk (Phillip Lord) Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What improvements would be truly useful? Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2018 20:23:50 +0000 Message-ID: <87r2orznl5.fsf@russet.org.uk> References: <87inaiss6l.fsf@web.de> <6FCF6ACA-4F29-4B6B-BE9D-D7130C6E9495@gnu.org> <87fu5moe4c.fsf@web.de> <877eqyocro.fsf@web.de> <83zi3uz4nb.fsf@gnu.org> <0b1dd3fa-e0b0-ed20-a256-dd92d1c1826f@dancol.org> <8bc3c4c7-dfc7-987a-95e7-bd309e2326c6@cs.ucla.edu> <03118DC0-39DA-4AB5-980E-A33809B9A5EE@raeburn.org> <87sh998qb8.fsf@russet.org.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1520713323 5290 195.159.176.226 (10 Mar 2018 20:22:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2018 20:22:03 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, raeburn@raeburn.org, dancol@dancol.org, rostislav.svoboda@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Mar 10 21:21:59 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eul0B-0001Gm-94 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 10 Mar 2018 21:21:59 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51827 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eul2E-0001hz-5W for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 10 Mar 2018 15:24:06 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:36608) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eul27-0001hc-OY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 10 Mar 2018 15:24:00 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eul26-0002f7-Tb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 10 Mar 2018 15:23:59 -0500 Original-Received: from [78.129.138.231] (port=47064 helo=cloud103.planethippo.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eul23-0002dR-3D; Sat, 10 Mar 2018 15:23:55 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=russet.org.uk; s=default; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID: In-Reply-To:Date:References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=7e3q0y2v8GIojWE82/DX2ycZdqjBVtL9s5q2KLdwQZo=; b=eRMqM4xt929nqY4WIoRJlr6xu 57RAFcBzLXpB5vBMtTlyxavUGe6jGGhTNeQpGHdVQGi1tUnAEAYODPxWKuY5QmMCfohVV5j9EMQNv rZd1qBGhIFAT9g88Ug4vBlTeLAoiIbagyzH2sd3xTIsrqhaFG0ctmZhdOk9gx3wmC3+7R6LfLIcJS isr9NSj7ywDWRD8e3+uuYweAEwAKl1EO2Zg7dknMf2RvPfP5UAlH0/7UhVEV/Kt6qii3CDzfpFIe3 q3WyMMatDJjCH1UUbkhkPcITThsIl2bRYfyZXZSqkIop0AF+WSGxRaob5Pl6g6ANDznHul9FC1rk+ +17vXIerg==; Original-Received: from cpc142652-benw12-2-0-cust953.16-2.cable.virginm.net ([82.21.43.186]:33608 helo=russet.org.uk) by cloud103.planethippo.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89_1) (envelope-from ) id 1eul1y-003vGI-Va; Sat, 10 Mar 2018 20:23:51 +0000 In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Fri, 09 Mar 2018 17:20:53 -0500") X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - cloud103.planethippo.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnu.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - russet.org.uk X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: cloud103.planethippo.com: authenticated_id: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk X-Authenticated-Sender: cloud103.planethippo.com: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 78.129.138.231 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:223596 Archived-At: Richard Stallman writes: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > No, it really isn't. A document is a user-centric feature -- it's a > > piece of work that stores information in a way that it useful to the > > user. > > I disagree with you there. If something can't be copied to various > places and looked at, I say it is not a document. It may be some > other kind of thing. > > > The self-contained file notion is a developer issue. > > No, it is absolutely crucial to being able to use the document > in the ways we are accustomed to use documents. I have to disagree with this. I mean, it was true 10 years ago, but it is not now. > > Following your definition, MS Word becomes a document editor and MS Word > > Online does not. > > I did not state a definition of "document editor" -- it's not part of the point > I want to make -- so I think that is a misunderstanding. No, I think not. Consider this scenario. I start editing some text on google docs with a collaborator; after a while we export the doc into word, share this with Dropbox, then eventually one person takes it over. Is this text really not a document till we download it? All of which gets back what I think was the point of the OP; Emacs would be a better tool if it supported the web. We've been having intense discussions about widget toolkits; what about a web-delivered Emacs? The Web and Mobile together make up the majority of computing these days. http://www.ymacs.org If you want a good example. Phil