From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Alex =?utf-8?Q?Benn=C3=A9e?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: "Why is emacs so square?" Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 11:14:21 +0100 Message-ID: <87r1wng2ki.fsf@linaro.org> References: <83zhbcg6s4.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="29944"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: mu4e 1.3.10; emacs 28.0.50 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Ulrich Mueller Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Apr 16 12:15:07 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jP1Y3-0007f4-M1 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 16 Apr 2020 12:15:07 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60336 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jP1Y2-0002eG-OV for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 16 Apr 2020 06:15:06 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:32933) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jP1XO-0001in-QY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Apr 2020 06:14:27 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1jP1XN-0006yF-Be for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Apr 2020 06:14:26 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wm1-x32c.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::32c]:33424) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1jP1XN-0006xs-4k for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Apr 2020 06:14:25 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wm1-x32c.google.com with SMTP id v8so2146430wma.0 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 2020 03:14:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=linaro.org; s=google; h=references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=zUqIe9MaSL1oxkplbwjZ5yRzE9wjF27XnInT68WHpec=; b=MgcxV7lxyOwmcL+1pDamFncZzRp2tW0zJinDo7LX0G6gR0gq4xdhivkdc/GAafR5PR FOQbkBaDunqjkBGLYLRQWrkP2OMvmuZfUK6ZussmUkVHZxVR/LodDIfVgt0uXUE9XQwj F0tUlCO7Q47g2K7JiZCc6cVH4V2rh29JRgm2Z7NRkGrp1+thBHi/0IooAqqT9YTRUylp qihQ5hWr12nmNuRjhRoQXFBBoqmriGcNglJguIp/b7M0TzUjsrzKs+zCR1ltdiqSUzfF Hf628kxOXrj46tXIwr2n79X34RqwDPNkFpDJLclvqzYrqwSSlOWWPOzCTsxmIOtaQcgx gSOg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject :in-reply-to:date:message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=zUqIe9MaSL1oxkplbwjZ5yRzE9wjF27XnInT68WHpec=; b=AWIYIlUPAFYrPZqG+wgwqhhrq4W4gw2RVPTuSxgHUTICd2j3J6xdv3BSzljF4nZfmq jvDCcmfFeyCwyCeDeWsTSY0Rz8zEeymJc8gr6HeThFpfSmeI7ff9mgGXEvEex2c9ltq9 rKa4cfTuWylpqGdSWJEWHbgEmLxlEOiC4FPykv5PIYL0WaM474SWqoyy24AfgisncePI X5osA2TRzYAvfQpcp1zC7jVAaioHqHXltuwrPfbybO0KtYARSo9DtcmG67f+/x0yj/35 gKS6Vs8R93NuBJ0mE8Vwdg2HLvRHLbHFpxUhYetvqj40dMmJfWpCetAK64OrMUCxaGv1 53Qg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PubJQ7mrdGiSddLiL03M+M/KLi0iCgzJUmbZyHODQlNqJVxFz9Ja kLNr6vuNjVeFjWFm8hTd1RIk+A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypL8xODuF5YMkBh/FTCqRdAw7oBtJp+clEK36Vt9IV5h6HbadQdALFJ2s+/M65Zbc4bRZSAb6Q== X-Received: by 2002:a7b:c0cb:: with SMTP id s11mr4416951wmh.180.1587032063673; Thu, 16 Apr 2020 03:14:23 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from zen.linaroharston ([51.148.130.216]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 1sm3134254wmz.13.2020.04.16.03.14.22 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 16 Apr 2020 03:14:22 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from zen (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zen.linaroharston (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D8371FF7E; Thu, 16 Apr 2020 11:14:21 +0100 (BST) In-reply-to: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:4864:20::32c X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247079 Archived-At: Ulrich Mueller writes: >>>>>> On Wed, 15 Apr 2020, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > >>> I think the difficulty here is to look "contemporary" and yet fit >>> every platform Emacs is run on. Button widgets look different on >>> each. Even between GUI toolkits. And change between releases. > >> There are only 2 variants: native buttons (provided by some toolkit) >> or the ones we draw ourselves. And there's no requirement that they >> all look the same, I think: they should have the look-and-feel of the >> toolkit being used. > > Exactly, and I presume it would be somewhat hard to emulate the GTK+ > look under Athena/Lucid or Motif. Also, what problem would it solve? Surely unifying under a single cross-platform toolkit like GTK+ would avoid having this complexity. I still run lucid because there is a long term bug in the GTK engine which I don't understand but gets loudly reported whenever you run it. I'm not sure if this is down to the toolkit or the thunking Emacs has to do to have a common command loop shared between it's GUI and terminal invocations? >>> The other option, of course, is to look both modern and unique, but it'= s=20 >>> a harder proposition, especially without a graphical designer on the=20 >>> team. And this stuff gets outdated quickly. > >> I think "modern and unique" is a contradiction of terms nowadays ;-) > > "Modern" mostly means that everything looks like half-sucked candy. > Please resist that temptation. :-) There is a danger in assuming everybody wants their experience to be like ours. My personal config may be fairly austere and minimalist but we should aim for the out-of-the-box experience to look nice and be intuitive for new users. I've been thinking about text editors for my children to use as they graduate from point and click programming to proper text and even I'm not sure I want their first experience to be Emacs. --=20 Alex Benn=C3=A9e