From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Emanuel Berg Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Lisp files that load cl-lib in problematical ways Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2023 13:19:06 +0200 Message-ID: <87r0lqoo5x.fsf@dataswamp.org> References: <87il8betof.fsf@dataswamp.org> <83fs3dgxv8.fsf@gnu.org> <835y38qvlg.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkcx6eci.fsf@dataswamp.org> <83ttqnm4ti.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="7154"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:fsbQPqCEDJAD3iw2Q+leT8hpUS0= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Oct 19 14:21:34 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qtS1s-0001c9-0e for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2023 14:21:32 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qtS0z-0007nx-VK; Thu, 19 Oct 2023 08:20:38 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qtR3f-0002DJ-MF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2023 07:19:19 -0400 Original-Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qtR3c-0006iq-VF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2023 07:19:19 -0400 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qtR3a-0008lP-JS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2023 13:19:15 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Mail-Copies-To: never Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -15 X-Spam_score: -1.6 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 19 Oct 2023 08:20:36 -0400 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:311589 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> That's a total of 541 occurrences, just in the files that >> get dumped with the Emacs binary. > > Those use cl-lib during byte-compilation, they don't load > cl-lib at run time. So this is not what Richard asked > about, AFAIU. The "levels" introduced in this discussion are, it would seem - files that are used by vanilla Emacs that use cl-lib - such files that use it at compile time - such files that use it a run time - such files that are loaded when Emacs is executed with no arguments but - what is the difference? I think it is pretty clear that cl-lib is used quite broadly, probably because people find it useful. So what does it matter if it is "purged" from one or several of these levels? What gain is there if that is achieved? >> I fear that that's the way things will stay, because it >> would be too much work to fix. But more because there are >> enough contributors who think that cl-lib is just an >> ordinary part of Emacs to be used freely without restraint. >> I am not among this group of contributors. > > We cannot possibly expect people to contribute code if we > force them not to use the macros they are used to. If cl-lib > is not loaded as result, that is good enough for us, > I think. Again, what is the harm loading cl-lib? -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal