From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Emanuel Berg Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What's missing in ELisp that makes people want to use cl-lib? Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2023 16:23:18 +0100 Message-ID: <87r0kwgvq1.fsf@dataswamp.org> References: <838r7g8pys.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkcbrgnr.fsf@posteo.net> <25924.21015.19614.951576@orion.rgrjr.com> <87bkc4jpja.fsf@dataswamp.org> <12da6bcb-1818-7fbe-12af-8d4607724332@gutov.dev> <87il6bt4z0.fsf@yahoo.com> <8734xetjkk.fsf@yahoo.com> <87cywhsrcf.fsf@yahoo.com> <87cywgx1z0.fsf@web.de> <83wmuowwp3.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="31810"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:wSr677jKdrubqh9Z6hWT0eDFCGU= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Nov 11 16:55:25 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r1qKS-000843-NX for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 11 Nov 2023 16:55:24 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r1qJk-0007JP-JL; Sat, 11 Nov 2023 10:54:40 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r1ppe-00038s-5r for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Nov 2023 10:23:34 -0500 Original-Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r1ppc-0006eI-Eo for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Nov 2023 10:23:33 -0500 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r1ppZ-000A9t-Rp for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Nov 2023 16:23:29 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Mail-Copies-To: never Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 11 Nov 2023 10:54:39 -0500 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312584 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii wrote: > We use keyword arguments when there are many of them, or > when a few of them are obscure and rarely used. From where > I stand, the dispute is not about banishing then -- that > will not happen -- the dispute is about how _much_ to > use them. But doesn't that mean there has to be rules for every individual library? And what kind of rule, for example for cl-lib? "You are allowed to use it - but not too much"? How are you going to formulate and enforce such rules? Well, anyway, then yes - it is not the way I think about programming and libraries. If there is a library, one should be allowed to use it as much or little as is needed to improve one's code. If everyone is instead supposed to write their own things instead of using the library solution then it means there will be code everywhere doing the same thing, almost, and in a slightly new way for every time it is implemented. I see that as more complexity and more time spent trying to understand other people's code, not less. But yes, the Emacs maintainers have to be familiar with the libraries being shipped with and included in Emacs. There is no way around it. -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal