From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Translation of manuals Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2024 21:27:39 +0800 Message-ID: <87r0iz3lx0.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <831qb45fog.fsf@gnu.org> <50A7AFED-DA37-4212-9ED1-7D906C34B6B2@traductaire-libre.org> <83o7e51bws.fsf@gnu.org> <83mstp11sz.fsf@gnu.org> <91D00B9D-0057-4748-8C83-50E749FE3961@traductaire-libre.org> <835y0b29rk.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="29345"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: Jean-Christophe Helary , vincent.b.1@hotmail.fr, stefankangas@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Jan 02 14:28:56 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rKepD-0007Le-35 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 02 Jan 2024 14:28:55 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rKeoQ-0001lR-Jt; Tue, 02 Jan 2024 08:28:06 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rKeoM-0001kK-N4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 02 Jan 2024 08:28:02 -0500 Original-Received: from sonic312-23.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.191.204]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rKeoJ-0000D9-K4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 02 Jan 2024 08:28:01 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1704202076; bh=9Z9iZM+dOq7bZdxIHk7lDD8oCrnCCuksQL85njsHNGI=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=hfJnLni2V6c3XtmA0NS+fRLqA1fnAIIIkKuOgC0JnR0wFg6KO3OuRnIl8etvQp/0QpoJ79g9TZzxnKwDsP04aFOMcesSlDTO6JYGyGQVO6kb1Vqmguh/tmWGCTu/xxQJeycUETDHi9qpyJ/4eMGBnDsZu1EODgmdvLcBksdGavu+k27hmcmz6Wk/Qx8XNkodJAbg2LonE6vCd9EQOmUHbGBIGQYWMQA+3q0EreMLXSA56rsBi5fEUudRIZE+yEA1f7eaRmeNCVJv5BvHhFDzCx8GqskdPDUnrMpNumkCiOYALCoIR/syqmCbfnpqTps24Xf8wn7ngHwg5K9Ge/N7Pw== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1704202076; bh=SAM2K0zP1Wq1g1UKLJ9ZdJYBnS223OoYh5ZUu5rpidg=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=H7lm1e+mjZkJl/42EVktYKbTrMhoThrzDUDJwM631CEo9MIECP5y0Z2m24jd5o6ZQ9h+cWg3lQTY+9WjogvrlJMJS+Jilw1yHfCjhh1ekBlsYCneJTzQ68KDDWuifXAfyRQO7BIqVaUhFJvSD1lkoD9NhQGVrvqJxMeMSLhd6XRP10hRSPJ3iIJkk6IgZ/LpxyQ0aZAvEvxix7sjhvH+c3ID5nO+UUKxdGrKhfQxE6NZv7itzzVg8ftaJj4CjrX3Rmok16nB01fKOKN09JLReOw0sgo83He1Gh5HByQuLy9CaZyrohNTygMR3Te1Kqajqeg4DfadvFk7q5NYLmi1Dw== X-YMail-OSG: C4duu5QVM1lQpf1iQLD0kdP67QfwT2obGIeQpY.IiKjCzU6nbPaho5_Heort6jX JcvuXaliwOVVTwbM2b2FkMlcF8a45Hn7WEK1jHGU.pMweSr8aABWEI_5Ol94KuI71gAyG5GuNHLd ZSzmhq8D3bEcBNL3XK2p7U7VCbcC7G1O9kYTYLQVNQzKDokccuSuj8Gp9zCzEGJom10CnbPnhOPD c9wyShw2BShxgLJdF3fodh5G.YaEAT_IJ7s.20LGHaV82aBzQo__aXFUDrV_ZMoOHPbSHdinO4iW UG_xQrY5hMXB6WX4EZoxySt2Oo1FtQ9OmQYw_V4.kIueWPGl2yvqdscntqdBp1z.8jGv1Yb4bMTY j5szzPpjfK9T8xTriYSlO4d7omAcQMWCsrrEn7qKevApTO7K0xtT7vokXmNyIeaTsyseGLss5AEF v8QI6pkl6R5N6WyUYdb6bnuWlQB5VFYzI4RXUgBjSSujOk9Z5cSqte3iqk7ChGWBBRhrj0TMKkMC EvQ3QVLcgBbu8M_UzrIpnYg1A5Sb1pNzN5lYYSr.fZeSqraggsZ401v815OnQBd_1sLQ.50RT8jo OBYRXoLFyqXv_95218T3r.39ne.uR6Lwg4J1Dag2T.bjCsqn.W.tMUzuWgqdWlwifl9DzH4Rr.SE NkXaNJrEGh10ITtKChGly.jnWR6oBbajnsVeVD0HInTlpJzNBNPlz3TJmRXIe2xn_FOomWj93oT1 CCfgkHqnRlrY2fA4VRbWJlfCgxtrMPLRW_hT_TILHGySWSFmzr8oyAl.J7cOBfhtWCECPXLJlaeT 35EjxARWte.YosdRAcRM1AUoWGidMLCew.ztyxFaQy X-Sonic-MF: X-Sonic-ID: 1b9cf61b-bf6b-4ed3-bc08-08b14d382b5c Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic312.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 2 Jan 2024 13:27:56 +0000 Original-Received: by hermes--production-sg3-65d57d948b-bq97j (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 455fdb7984ca6cb3250ef3b175f7734c; Tue, 02 Jan 2024 13:27:50 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <835y0b29rk.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Tue, 02 Jan 2024 14:35:27 +0200") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21952 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.191.204; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic312-23.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:314453 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: > And again: the rate of change of the misc manuals is quite low. If > and when someone will decide to translate the Emacs user manual or the > ELisp reference manual, then we'll have a serious problem with keeping > up with the rate of changes. But not before that. I think this might only be true of the SES manual and not of the others, if my observation that many of them receive updates at roughly monthly intervals is correct. Taken alone this figure is not all that daunting, but it is substantial enough that with the resources our translators will be realistically capable of dedicating to the task of updating them, they cannot match this rate of change, and the translations will remain outdated most of the time. Considering that several of the frequently updated manuals are merged from external sources with their change history lost during transfer, this rate probably doesn't reflect the true frequency of changes being made to them. On the contrary, it is much higher. It doesn't help that the originals of a number of these manuals are also written in a different markup language, and remain that way prior to their compilation during the Emacs build process. As such the question becomes whether we should be maintaining these translations at all; here are some arguments as to why not: Besides help2man (whose info page turns out to be far too small to be worthy of consideration), there are no GNU projects in the business of translating their manuals to languages not English. The manual of most interest to our users is the user manual, with the Lisp reference manual a close second, and if we balk at translating these two, the purpose of translating the small fry is defeated by the certainty that their intended readership will already have read documentation in English. What's more, there is a translation of our user manual being circulated over the Internet _right now_ on sites bearing no relation to us: https://crowdin.com/project/emacs-manual-chinese To all appearances it has lost most of its momentum, which is the probable fate of any like translations that we should take charge of: there's no reason to believe that merely providing accommodation for a translation will magically increase interest in its upkeep to a level sufficient to make it sustainable. Maybe we should leave aspiring translators to author translations of our manuals at their own pace. It's no great loss if users have to search a little, and will save us from ever distributing outdated manuals or concerning ourselves with rescuing them when (not if) interest in them diminishes to a level where it is not anymore possible to update them in tandem with changes to their source documents.