From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Emanuel Berg Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2024 12:43:01 +0200 Message-ID: <87r0b3p7wq.fsf@dataswamp.org> References: <87sevj9b50.fsf@jeremybryant.net> <871q33rj7v.fsf@dataswamp.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="15660"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:LIaaRlkIox2hkx7AcNmCh5dG8PI= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Aug 05 13:02:26 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1savTt-0003vR-T8 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 13:02:26 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1savTj-0000rE-Bw; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 07:02:15 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1savBJ-0000rG-IV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 06:43:13 -0400 Original-Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1savBH-0008Nt-MM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 06:43:13 -0400 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1savBF-0004C1-8b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 12:43:09 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Mail-Copies-To: never Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 05 Aug 2024 07:02:12 -0400 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:322359 Archived-At: Christopher Dimech wrote: > It all depends on the specific work one is doing. In some > instances the indented style and excessive use of () makes > working with lisp code harder than other languages. After writing just a few programs in Python I wrote it pretty fluently with very few syntax errors and very few stop - if ever - to just look at the code and figure out - ???. Yet after doing all this Elisp for all this time both in terms of intensive hours _and_ many years for it to "assimilate" if you will I can honestly/regretfully say I'm nowhere close to my Python fluency after just a few short programs. Well, now I have lost that as well, of course. And a lot of code even in Emacs is very difficult to understand. It is the same language but a completely, many completely different styles. > Many people are being forced to use Python especially in > many university graduate schools. Lisp has always been > a choice. Hardly. If anywhere, Lisp is stronger at universities. And around Emacs. Everywhere else it is completely marginalized. And if you think about what the universities are, and what Emacs is - Lisp has underperformed grossly if one assumes it is more expressive and powerful than any other language. If it is, then it is a joke. But it isn't and it isn't, it is just a marginalized programming language, like boxing is a fringe sport or whatever. It still exists, all is good. > The best education one can get today is by self discovery. > Schools are not the way. They actually do give classes in philosophy. >> Okay, then everyone should know this is a controversial >> thing to say. No one, or very few, would recommend Emacs >> Lisp as an alternative to Python 2024. > > There is nothing controversial, one simple has to see how > things are in specific situations. Very controversial, if it is boasting like hockey talk or self-PR it is okay but we can't say that with a straight face to the youngsters. Not many of us anyway. > The designers of Lisp had to deal with much more things. > Hence its design has been very well thought out by extremely > good designers. Today there are many programmers, but good > system designers are rare despite the increase in systematic > education strategies. I don't know the details of the history but I doubt it happened that way. As for educated people, the skills today and the volume of people doing technology including programming is astronomical compared to 1958 and also to 1985. -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal