From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs contributions, C and Lisp Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 16:08:29 +0900 Message-ID: <87ppmatkpe.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <87r47bi1e5.fsf@yandex.ru> <52F96284.50507@yandex.ru> <52FAE12B.6060101@yandex.ru> <52FC3BEE.60604@yandex.ru> <52FCD2B4.5080006@yandex.ru> <52FD9F1D.50205@yandex.ru> <83mwhucg1h.fsf@gnu.org> <878ute589i.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83d2iqc84m.fsf@gnu.org> <87wqgxkcr9.fsf@yandex.ru> <834n41db0d.fsf@gnu.org> <52FE2985.4070703@yandex.ru> <831tz5daes.fsf@gnu.org> <8738jlohd6.fsf@yandex.ru> <83txc1bl83.fsf@gnu.org> <5300189A.9090208@yandex.ru> <83wqgv9fbj.fsf@gnu.org> <20140216180712.236069f6@forcix.jorgenschaefer.de> <83sirj9cyp.fsf@gnu.org> <20140217203145.71a849f7@forcix.jorgenschaefer.de> <837g8t8ouc.fsf@gnu.org> <20140219080524.25689b6b@forcix.jorgenschaefer.de> <83k3cr58o2.fsf@gnu.org> <530BAEE5.9040004@online.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1393398589 18880 80.91.229.3 (26 Feb 2014 07:09:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 07:09:49 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Feb 26 08:09:57 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1WIYcu-0000ex-3t for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 26 Feb 2014 08:09:56 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38505 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WIYct-000232-LS for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 26 Feb 2014 02:09:55 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:50127) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WIYcj-00020k-Ni for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 26 Feb 2014 02:09:53 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WIYcc-00005s-Cq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 26 Feb 2014 02:09:45 -0500 Original-Received: from mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:36505) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WIYcb-0007wM-PQ; Wed, 26 Feb 2014 02:09:38 -0500 Original-Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mgmt2.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBB1D970913; Wed, 26 Feb 2014 16:08:29 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id AA9EF1A28E5; Wed, 26 Feb 2014 16:08:29 +0900 (JST) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta34) "kale" 2a0f42961ed4 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 130.158.97.224 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:169880 Archived-At: Richard Stallman writes: > This is because LLVM does not try to defend users' freedom at all. Of course it does. It gives them the choice of using excellent free software. Apple (inter alia) may provide proprietary versions of LLVM or its components, but many users will choose to use the free ones for various reasons. > Its developers willingly permit nonfree modified versions, which is > the reason that LLVM has done harm. Anyone using a non-strong-copyleft license does the same kind of harm. That includes the LGPL, which has an even more harmful effect than that of the proposed GCC which emits AST information, since you can include LGPLed code in the same process with proprietary code -- in the completion application in question, that usually minor efficiency might actually be useful. So, precisely what is the difference between the harm (of quite limited scope, as DAK points out) done by LLVM, and the much broader harm[1] done by Debian, which distributes a very large proportion of its software under non-strong-copyleft licenses? The point is that with the exception of the deliberately perverse licenses like SSLeay, almost all are GPL-compatible, and Debian *could* distribute them as a collective work under the GPL (with exceptions for the perverse permissive licenses -- n.b. GPL-incompatible strong copyleft licenses don't cause this kind of harm), which would have a useful psychological effect, even if in practice very little legal effect? And why should Emacs users suffer for that difference? Footnotes: [1] Many proprietary webservers and databases that can be used in "LAMP stacks" happily run on Debian, as well as Ubuntu, Red Hat, and the rest of the commercial distros. The webservers at least are often based on free software, ie, Apache.