From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Karl Fogel Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: New maintainer Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 17:20:06 -0500 Message-ID: <87pp0p0zqh.fsf@red-bean.com> References: <560CCEBA.9080607@online.de> <874miapdhs.fsf@openmailbox.org> <8737xuuw2y.fsf@rabkins.net> <87lhbmkrle.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87si5r22qh.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> Reply-To: Karl Fogel NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1444342895 18682 80.91.229.3 (8 Oct 2015 22:21:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 22:21:35 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Oct 09 00:21:34 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZkJZ7-0007hC-9H for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 09 Oct 2015 00:21:33 +0200 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZkJY3-00084C-1g for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 08 Oct 2015 18:21:33 -0400 Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:55213) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZkJY2-000808-1f for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 08 Oct 2015 18:20:26 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:37478 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZkJY1-0003on-TY for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 08 Oct 2015 18:20:25 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:59711) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZkJXq-0003ob-1C for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 08 Oct 2015 18:20:15 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZkJXl-00074N-RF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 08 Oct 2015 18:20:13 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-yk0-x22e.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4002:c07::22e]:33566) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZkJXl-00074B-Nl for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 08 Oct 2015 18:20:09 -0400 Original-Received: by ykft14 with SMTP id t14so62910361ykf.0 for ; Thu, 08 Oct 2015 15:20:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:from:to:subject:references:reply-to:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=QJWrC8pJFasNsrGl99L+XXXvt0q+c+cVagUU3qGBpLI=; b=UvTO76scMFls0Tvd67R9XiuxCjF6IoxlRmTftrMySOIaARl9uM2AzUBgjwq0zBD9QA 3PajGCwofCQkzh9Qt6MUrcI8OkMwhzHw0qV2XwM/WOKLwiWWvdD9aavLLfxXvK0hiBmb UI8SU5CYxxpmRknpTkGD9We4FTQTInUc7NPr7YdoS4e8XxiSy40Q7o0vs916WYyLShqw DInROkg+LCKcOEuiBrdAHSBefDC4A/2n6iBJtszRUaNZ9DAqFy9HqHPdF7PgzIIUaMav DY3sMQhnfcJzRNwMt4Wu/1TZvJpr5JFYgxQgE7lenVOuhTzY9Juym4UyLsa7lh+UoE+P hjeQ== X-Received: by 10.13.235.147 with SMTP id u141mr6852322ywe.259.1444342808620; Thu, 08 Oct 2015 15:20:08 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from floss (74-92-190-114-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net. [74.92.190.114]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v77sm32006878ywa.31.2015.10.08.15.20.07 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 08 Oct 2015 15:20:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: (John Wiegley's message of "Tue, 06 Oct 2015 23:43:56 -0700") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:191073 Archived-At: John, your points below are a continuation of a very interesting tactical (and philosophical) debate... that was already held on this list fairly recently, and that eventually went somewhat off-topic for this list even then :-). While the questions you raise are worth discussing for the GNU project as a whole, I think Richard has made it clear that the position of the FSF regarding Emacs' development priorities is definitely not going to be changed as part of this new maintainer discussion. So if at this point you were to say that, as far as being an Emacs maintainer goes, you understand and are willing to abide by the priorities Richard has articulated, even though you disagree with them, that would settle an important question. Or if you don't think you can abide by them, in your work as maintainer, that would be useful to know too (though it would probably result in you not being the maintainer). As you know, I hope you can abide by them and be the maintainer (or a co-maintainer) because I think you'd be terrific at it. But it's your call. I merely urge clarity; Richard has made his position clear, so if you do too then things can move forward one way or the other. Best, -K John Wiegley writes: >Hi Richard, > >Thank you for the clarification, the picture is becoming much clearer. I >really appreciate the time you've taken to reiterate these positions for the >millionth time. > >There is one point I am having a hard time with. I'm feeling as though my >Emacs experience (as a user) is being sacrificed at someone else's altar. > >The idea, if I understand it, is that you don't want Emacs' C++ support to >allow Clang to beat GCC, because then people would naturally choose Clang who >care more about getting things done, than they do about software freedom. In >effect, Emacs is being used to keep people within the free software agenda, by >making Clang no more appealing than GCC. > >This troubles me. I can see that for you, the freedom idea is much more >important than the technical idea. You'd rather we stick with GCC until the >cows come home, so long as it leads to a freer world. > >Meanwhile, there are those among us who don't share your ideals to the same >extent. We'd prefer an editor that lets us get things done faster, better, >leaving us with free time to... produce more free software. > >I can't help but think that unless the FSF has more to offer than its ideals, >its technical decisions are going to render it obsolete. Progress waits for no >man, and the world is changing more and more rapidly. There is a reason Clang >is eating GCC's lunch: because the needs of a larger community demand a better >free compiler. > >Emacs is still a fantastic editor, but it's old and its age is showing. If we >remain competitive, it could stay awesome for another 30 years; but if we >avoid progress to further non-technical agendas, I think it will drive people >AWAY from the GNU project, not bind them more tightly to it. > >John