From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: taylanbayirli@gmail.com (Taylan Ulrich =?utf-8?Q?Bay=C4=B1rl=C4=B1?= =?utf-8?Q?=2FKammer?=) Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs rewrite in a maintainable language Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 21:35:22 +0200 Message-ID: <87pp0cotqd.fsf@T420.taylan> References: <561A19AB.5060001@cumego.com> <87r3kusx8z.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83lhb26eb9.fsf@gnu.org> <876126key3.fsf@gnu.org> <83fv1a6bfu.fsf@gnu.org> <87d1weo7u9.fsf@gnu.org> <83zizi3qr0.fsf@gnu.org> <87lhb1n81y.fsf@gnu.org> <83si594wt3.fsf@gnu.org> <87io64iigs.fsf@gnu.org> <87r3kso1gr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87wpuks5ek.fsf@T420.taylan> <83vba4i1z3.fsf@gnu.org> <87pp0cqgjf.fsf@T420.taylan> <83twpoi0sp.fsf@gnu.org> <878u70qf75.fsf@T420.taylan> <83mvvghydi.fsf@gnu.org> <5623E3B5.8050407@dancol.org> <87y4f0kos9.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <5623EAB2.5000008@dancol.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1445196932 25353 80.91.229.3 (18 Oct 2015 19:35:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 19:35:32 +0000 (UTC) Cc: David Kastrup , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Daniel Colascione Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Oct 18 21:35:30 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Zntju-0007Ff-Kx for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 18 Oct 2015 21:35:30 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35320 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zntju-00086d-0U for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 18 Oct 2015 15:35:30 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:48345) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zntjq-00086X-TG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 18 Oct 2015 15:35:27 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zntjp-0005ap-QT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 18 Oct 2015 15:35:26 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wi0-x22b.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c05::22b]:34318) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zntjp-0005aj-Jp; Sun, 18 Oct 2015 15:35:25 -0400 Original-Received: by wikq8 with SMTP id q8so24928462wik.1; Sun, 18 Oct 2015 12:35:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=Oa4cn/fyIQyNU0g3q7ut5d5N6iQkntxOCavhtrB/MHc=; b=RtlyRZUhG/XvX5CurveCEIktLltXB/6sJLjUWX1G6Hl6MiTw3lUWQxilhOS+c2tPp8 sSuqigiNXu2iz07CrWEZjFmJs2qCAyibHmndRVvyi3LZmsrNuW4Eb3AmyQT1oBqCe31J CGfESXZZ/FyMrat0tzJVvPxQJspt8hvLqWMJ006hKv20xIvIq/+1gqWFSgA40TlcUDwJ FBBWFv4jtvItvADfhL73AaPUPVFjl6nMzQghhKMt82EEqLh22A5E/zTUuHzkws0PSAuj O+oHCMd8pq4b5zk734Mhug2mSm1j7csHFWIXH3ENRByn9bavqxmKHi6LuOBUv+GB2lVV ItiA== X-Received: by 10.180.208.100 with SMTP id md4mr16092380wic.41.1445196925044; Sun, 18 Oct 2015 12:35:25 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from T420.taylan ([2a02:908:c32:4740:221:ccff:fe66:68f0]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ka10sm35709971wjc.30.2015.10.18.12.35.23 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 18 Oct 2015 12:35:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5623EAB2.5000008@dancol.org> (Daniel Colascione's message of "Sun, 18 Oct 2015 11:53:38 -0700") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.5 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22b X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:192007 Archived-At: Daniel Colascione writes: > On 10/18/2015 11:35 AM, David Kastrup wrote: >> Daniel Colascione writes: >>> Wanting to use one language is, IMHO, a poor choice for wanting to >>> completely swap out a language. I am opposed to Guilemacs, not only on >>> technical grounds, but also because elisp is essential to Emacs (and >>> not just an optional extension system), and I want its implementation >>> to live alongside the rest of the Emacs core code. >> >> I'm not convinced that it's a bad idea to separate the Elisp >> implementation more from the Emacs core code. It provides a >> well-documented interface between the two: hacking the C code in Emacs >> remains a considerable inside job and is not documented on its own. >> >> So I consider this a strength rather than a weakness of the GuileEmacs >> proposition in the long term. > > I disagree. Integrating the interpreter and the editor makes integrated > changes easy. It also makes elisp releases synchronous with Emacs ones. > I don't think a strong library separate here gives us anything useful. > > Consider my recent change to add finalizers to elisp. I saw a need for > the feature and just implemented it directly in Emacs. What would the > equivalent be in a guilemacs world? I'd have had to make the change > upstream in guile (where I suspect the process is much more involved), > wait for a stable release of guile, added Emacs support, and then still > not have been able to rely on the feature until Emacs dropped support > for the last version of Guile to lack the feature. > > We'd have to go to all that trouble for what, exactly? A cleaner > internal API? I don't buy it. Guilemacs has other disadvantages: > currently, Emacs supports _only_ elisp as a first-class extension > language. Guilemacs would invite people to write Emacs extensions in > Scheme, JavaScript, and whatever else Guile ends up supporting, which > will create fragmentation. A unified elisp ecosystem is a strength. Guile already supports finalizers (and much, much more) so you wouldn't have needed to implement it from scratch for Elisp. :-) Taylan