From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ingo Lohmar Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Is it time to drop ChangeLogs? Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2016 22:25:35 +0100 Message-ID: <87pov4achc.fsf@acer.localhost.com> References: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83vb50wxhv.fsf@gnu.org> <87y49vz4cg.fsf@acer.localhost.com> <64a52598-ad53-498c-993c-67d7827dbdfc@default> <838u1uuuau.fsf@gnu.org> <878u1um2xl.fsf@thinkpad.rath.org> <87fuw090k7.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83y49spuxt.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1457472356 25411 80.91.229.3 (8 Mar 2016 21:25:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 21:25:56 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii , =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar?= Fuentes Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Mar 08 22:25:50 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1adP8X-00008E-Pe for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 22:25:49 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:37560 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adP8X-0006vj-9p for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 16:25:49 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:58294) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adP8U-0006v4-2A for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 16:25:46 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adP8T-00040U-35 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 16:25:45 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-wm0-x235.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c09::235]:36673) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adP8N-0003z4-Au; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 16:25:39 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-wm0-x235.google.com with SMTP id n186so151000516wmn.1; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 13:25:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:user-agent:date :message-id:mime-version; bh=HU/Aqp6jGn3PR3DIVRJv0jxaMIvdhc+iuhYjqnD7KP8=; b=TNDUnP1nvnaixdqB25O7wYQbU29TRyld6Bk/r7U6wLJ4dRl68syuM9Ea/45zjgwsbG H6EQc+Gnn8YFLg3elQV46BaTBM/j6ZRydHVnNCRJDeTPliV49f9Gni5qb2nlI/edX910 oE/s7pa0YRCu1B0gvKfaTS2TYYPyhOYWA/JafspSDAG+5Yo4jQ4g0uG0N8JzE854fxF/ Epyeaiz7as/m41qUxV//6xoNqXhD5+UEGapL+EWAdm1Do304btIQmXLkKpskWKEtBxnl Fjrz3nh8dLohtAIPpCezz5e7DIezu+vtnKvtkffzyAOlODJmbo+OECBq+TQq1gQre90j zrgQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references :user-agent:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=HU/Aqp6jGn3PR3DIVRJv0jxaMIvdhc+iuhYjqnD7KP8=; b=Rl98Qkmts6Qz8wIefIPej7ugQdiZbGb15CzsGVIX6wdxMirzgbf/KzDEop1kWLJIVi KRR+BMALjlPbOhkcC0yPUGBlOrGnfHKu4oL06jR05yVBCXPBRf5U6luEEmXpeDu/86Ap DGw/faSmIT4TiYAhc7SAi117hI22EEZ/p+FKXqzj8RrgiT7+hH6t2G4CbrJCtSnOe92X ViM5O5W+QyicBnRhaQA1Ju+ff564wpDctXoVbpROQPh+zu3lnZ7UxMl3bU815fW7Cg6L Jby6REuUNgCxHBl1DEHPGE7nYb6kZ1ckjp94ZgkID5nokkAzhqjmi7XXHDfxZRyGHGuA 6rrQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJJvy6zBBhZh6h15CUapFbhUO7jNKfaCEz1dM55oGhDZFIHDAV4N9f1xuIFWioILkQ== X-Received: by 10.194.201.130 with SMTP id ka2mr30184915wjc.34.1457472338236; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 13:25:38 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from localhost (xdsl-87-78-49-57.netcologne.de. [87.78.49.57]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u16sm5270019wmd.5.2016.03.08.13.25.36 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 08 Mar 2016 13:25:37 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <83y49spuxt.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Notmuch/0.20.2+113~g6332e6e (http://notmuchmail.org) Emacs/25.0.90.1 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:400c:c09::235 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:201210 Archived-At: On Tue, Mar 08 2016 22:37 (+0200), Eli Zaretskii wrote: > Using Git is not a problem for me. The problem is that the > information in Git log is unreliable. The other problem is that will > never succeed in teaching new contributors how to make good log > messages unless we have an easy way of fixing mistakes there. Some arguments in this thread are repeated ad infinitum although they don't seem to stand a little scrutiny. "git log" messages cannot technically be both immutable and unreliable: At least there is some severely imprecise use of language going on. As to the teaching argument: I have read every single message in this thread, and nobody has argued for lower (but several people for higher) commit message standards. In contrast to your opinion, it seems to me that fixing mistakes in the Changelogs teaches a contributor who has committed with a flawed commit message that it's not really important. They, or somebody else, can clean up their (incl. possibly my) mess. As Oscar has argued, having the original commit rejected (by means to be discussed, and only until people have shown good judgment and discipline) teaches them that commit messages matter. The whole argument for Changelogs comes down to a) being an established band-aid to clean up spilt milk, or b) providing a fixed-form summary of things that can be obtained using the VCS (provided the humans or tools wirting the Changelog are as "reliable" as the VCS).