From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Philip K." Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal for an Emacs User Survey Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 15:23:26 +0200 Message-ID: <87pn5ipanl.fsf@posteo.net> References: <4a1188f8-9864-54c0-ae6f-5f32102d9757@gmx.com> <20201011073553.GA6784@odonien.localdomain> <20201011120840.GC2923@protected.rcdrun.com> <20201011125031.GC6784@odonien.localdomain> <20201012050418.GZ2923@protected.rcdrun.com> <20201013052736.GE31408@protected.rcdrun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="23057"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.1 (gnu/linux) Cc: Richard Stallman , Jean Louis , emacs-devel To: Thibaut Verron Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Oct 16 15:24:41 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kTPir-0005sY-GV for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 15:24:41 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:59878 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kTPiq-00022e-H6 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 09:24:40 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:55994) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kTPhn-0001YQ-4U for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 09:23:35 -0400 Original-Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:58011) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kTPhk-0007cO-13 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 09:23:34 -0400 Original-Received: from submission (posteo.de [89.146.220.130]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8CAAF2400FE for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 15:23:27 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1602854607; bh=l9R7ptamFBfGtcHIl0OzZFS/jlMJHuasMEmw6Hqlvuw=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=SlEzTjuZ+sYgs8HJRBbtXCZLgOO6N5qUmk5rVDrnuDGS1bucjo4IdLKooqNBvHr85 +zzvqoDAGYSil+4Vpp7Z45cbYmfWb8rhtfDEU7X986jpy9nJYFbRnQbErRRwDsoEgf 7Sex+Yg00KgI/IaMX6m6QwoKyZ+Wek3CApI7TYG2WPLYrIhvK8lN14xaxotbRQ8qZQ 9FrXHYn34x5SJad/0JKfsE2DSlWzAOUQRHkyRBDIWYFXU4hTqJIFwo123BQ2SeOYR4 HYhE8HiLXL4zhuC3bfR5qM7UBaX9/sJ/oU6Kka6t96a6GIfFTnOp9hPeNoDLkwaypV kXRlEebyLbWtw== Original-Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4CCRg25Bdmz9rxM; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 15:23:26 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: (Thibaut Verron's message of "Fri, 16 Oct 2020 09:05:31 +0200") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.66; envelope-from=philipk@posteo.net; helo=mout02.posteo.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/10/16 07:50:13 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:257804 Archived-At: Thibaut Verron writes: > Le ven. 16 oct. 2020 =C3=A0 05:59, Richard Stallman a =C3= =A9crit : >> I hope that only a minority of Emacs users know about MELPA, and I'd >> rather not inform the rest about it. But if something is going to >> inform them anyway, it is better to do it with a denunciation. > > I believe that it is too late for such hopes, and that a majority of > Emacs users know about Melpa and/or uses it. Some people know about it > without using it (most of them probably read this list) and some > people use it without knowing it (users of pre-configured emacs'es). > > For instance, those three links were on the first page of a duckduckgo > search for "install emacs packages": > > https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/InstallingPackages > http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/emacs_package_system.html > http://pragmaticemacs.com/emacs/install-packages/ And that's only if the user already knows that they want to install packages (instead of "plug-ins" or "extensions", as other software would refer to the concept). From my experience, almost every non-official beginners tutorial will either mention or just give you the code to configure MELPA. And with all the starter-packages that offer to pre-configure Emacs, you don't even think about it. But that's currently unavoidable, a lot of the advocacy for Emacs is based on promoting certain packages (Magit, Evil, Org-mode extensions such as Roam, etc.) that are for the most part only available on MELPA. Non-GNU Elpa should help to mitigate this problem, as my impression is that most people intrigued in Emacs, would quickly loose interest, if it weren't for these specific packages. (In general I think that that kind promotion isn't good, at least in the long term. Emacs is seen as getting in the way of whatever package you need, and they therefore follow whatever method they find to avoid learning. While possible, it leaves many on a fragile tower of abstractions and hacks, that could break at any moment.) --=20 Philip K.