From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tim Cross Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [External] : Re: indent-tabs-mode default [was: Representation of the Emacs userbase on emacs-devel] Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2021 16:40:37 +1000 Message-ID: <87pmtmkwyb.fsf@gmail.com> References: <874kb1gjxs.fsf@yahoo.com> <87r1e4fueq.fsf@yahoo.com> <87a6krg8n5.fsf@yahoo.com> <1814c1e5-5085-bfee-9bc8-2cc66949e785@yandex.ru> <871r63g12g.fsf@yahoo.com> <87wnnveg30.fsf@yahoo.com> <10b4782c-ba2a-4d98-8934-258a1203055b@yandex.ru> <871r62ec1h.fsf@yahoo.com> <87y28al837.fsf@gmail.com> <87tuiycr5e.fsf@yahoo.com> <87tuiyl2w1.fsf@gmail.com> <87pmtmclds.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="31186"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: mu4e 1.7.0; emacs 27.2.50 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Po Lu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 06 09:04:37 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mN8gH-0007zb-Ei for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 06 Sep 2021 09:04:37 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:45980 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mN8gG-00008P-6x for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 06 Sep 2021 03:04:36 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:58274) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mN8f0-0007Et-3V for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Sep 2021 03:03:18 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pj1-x102d.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::102d]:54902) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mN8ew-00027R-3n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Sep 2021 03:03:17 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pj1-x102d.google.com with SMTP id fs6so3684275pjb.4 for ; Mon, 06 Sep 2021 00:03:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject:date:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version; bh=9q/lddMvPQ/GebMF6qB589iPVICqAbjtsYmaBKxBhs0=; b=BmG9oxXjPe2nX9TDkyJO7nyW7YgVDSqvRQfZBd+kDxmsm3A+vnyqBLoW20rORPSF4Z w7oPGabuttzDNIAMOFHh9KPnduSm3/wMDJUUQyKXPu5TnTyqoeI9PtuAjNtYfkngent5 GtR+xuW0M7WclncVBmh0lqrukBikfwjSJ2/0SzfQBj7mL3BPR6eHZumB+JP5WnvxBPz9 0sgUO2PWnPE/B3r49bi0Jy3XEvMhbBd0GwQSQYRMde4ZfTIJm4qe+VF4gcxRsy7GUKRU A0Gtqv1QqveonnadK8mMmkONO42gxC+2N99AK60aYsfQAxK90IRxvLzMMkfSTN17+CHF 0uMA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject:date :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version; bh=9q/lddMvPQ/GebMF6qB589iPVICqAbjtsYmaBKxBhs0=; b=V6jGzOqqj8ndoxHcZ7xFmzzm74dd83ndq4E+pX13HU9tIHP+KMutfWzMJga00vEhCK GHiSGdqNO0MxrES6g2YXPjztfnYDHugnOwcNzqRXzCndgVSNyzzDgmgJIvNe9hNAlTeu vH/fvB6Ss9pcOA9KR2Yk1gHo1bnaNuDPJqxHPntwhmpbw0I59xMHjm9oF+CxmCj1dKoT +3FzrdzReSfbLhJhJzXHDg3OEOTMjIBZrG+kE+yjdk9vooNGCIi/URa7XUYraYHr22hB cl1xQ3m+NFdIBFky6s0lrG583cReyHELgEHEO/Sq72XwrzR7Rh0ccQgiGIsA6xya2lBF 6N/Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5324tEkaACopQBs7ghZKDd/p3EQ98jnjsdOWF3guEWLd80sLSwXw M2N5eqwDKr+oWC6ORBUfsKg9LQI9isc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw2KSoDmP31/6OwKmx9eZlKxAge08ZBFHB0EUIwaIe59CuAYXE6fz/Q/AofctxLUGQC317AhQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:903:11c8:b0:138:d85a:7f09 with SMTP id q8-20020a17090311c800b00138d85a7f09mr9643700plh.75.1630911792277; Mon, 06 Sep 2021 00:03:12 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from tim-desktop (106-69-96-152.dyn.iinet.net.au. [106.69.96.152]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y23sm6393563pfe.129.2021.09.06.00.03.10 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 06 Sep 2021 00:03:11 -0700 (PDT) In-reply-to: <87pmtmclds.fsf@yahoo.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::102d; envelope-from=theophilusx@gmail.com; helo=mail-pj1-x102d.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:274078 Archived-At: Po Lu writes: > Tim Cross writes: > >> Regardless of debate on whether there are new users or not, evidence >> indicates those who want spaces and those who want tabs are roughly >> equally divided. Therefore, half those 'old' users are required to >> change the setting regardless of what the default is. All your >> argument seems to come down to is that your happy with the status quo >> and don't want it to change because that is in-line with your >> preference. That is fine, but is no stronger an argument than arguing >> for the default to be changed - in this case, changing or not changing >> based solely on level of annoyance is simply insufficient. > > So, if the default is changed, the other half of the "roughly equally > divided" portion of the userbase will also have to change their > settings, which means the entire userbase will have changed that > settings. > > Which is more pleasant? To have the half of the userbase who have, for > the most part, already done so, change their settings, or to have the > other half of the userbase who have mostly not done so change their > settings? > Flawed argument. Those who have set it don't have to do anything. They could remove it to slightly reduce their config size, but they could just as easily do nothing with no impact. >> I would suggest very few people have ever fully read the manual before >> using Emacs. Besides, the best way to read the manual is with Emacs, >> so you already have a 'chicken and egg' situations. Furthermore, the >> fact the default was already at the setting you wanted would indicate >> you never needed to find this information and therefore are not in a >> strong position to argue whether that is easy or not. On the other >> hand, when I started using Emacs I did need to change the default and >> I do recall it took some effort to work out how to do that - enough >> effort to be annoying. As already stated, annoyance is an insufficient >> criteria in this case because the two sides are roughly >> equal. Understanding the expectations of new users may change that >> balance and is therefore worth considering. > > The manual is available in print, and downloadable online in HTML, > PostScript and PDF format. While the Emacs Info reader may be > convenient, there is nothing preventing users from reading the manual in > any of those other formats, or even an alternative Info reader, before > reading the manual in Emacs, so I don't see how that is a problem. > The real problem is that people simply don't read the manual before using the editor. If you did, that makes you quite unusual. What most people will do is use the editor and then turn to the manual when they have problems. > Emacs also has an Easy Customization interface. Even without reading > the manual, one can simply search "indent tabs" inside the Easy > Customization interface, and reach the option. > > If that fails, an apropos for 'indent tabs' turns up indent-tabs-mode as > the first result. > > And if ignorance of the manual really is a problem, then how about > finding a way to publicize the manual? For instance, a weekly post > about the manual in comp.emacs, or r/emacs, or whatever happens to be > popular ATM. > All the above paragraphs tell me is that changing the setting is trivial. this also means that whatever the default is really doesn't matter as the level of annoyance associated with having to change it is minimal regardless of what the default is. Again, staying with the current default based on a argument of annoyance is irrelevant. Other criteria are needed in order to make the decision anything more than arbitrary. There is also the problem of familiarity with all of the above. If you are use to Emacs and know all of this, yes it is easy and fairly trivial. If your not, it can be hard. The defaults are primarily for this category, not for experienced users IMO. I have little sympathy for arguments against change based solely on annoyance for experienced users. As you point out, once you know about the customization interface, appropos etc, making the change is trivial. For new users, not so much. I think it is also difficult to argue not to change a default and at the same time argue that it is easy for the user to change it if they don't like the default. > There also seem to be cross-editor solutions for configuring these > options on a per-file or a per-project basis, such as editor-config. If > Emacs gains support for these solutions, they could potentially > alleviate these problems in their entirety. Things like support for editorconfig are a good idea. To what extent editorconfig will support the more subtle interplay between how options are defined for different editors is another issue. In theory, I think it could be a useful addition/extension. I guess there could be some subtle issues to consider though - for example, an editorconfig which is changing things which the user does not want changed and being able to efficiently track that source of change.