From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [External] : Re: indent-tabs-mode default [was: Representation of the Emacs userbase on emacs-devel] Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2021 13:40:15 +0800 Message-ID: <87pmtmclds.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <874kb1gjxs.fsf@yahoo.com> <87r1e4fueq.fsf@yahoo.com> <87a6krg8n5.fsf@yahoo.com> <1814c1e5-5085-bfee-9bc8-2cc66949e785@yandex.ru> <871r63g12g.fsf@yahoo.com> <87wnnveg30.fsf@yahoo.com> <10b4782c-ba2a-4d98-8934-258a1203055b@yandex.ru> <871r62ec1h.fsf@yahoo.com> <87y28al837.fsf@gmail.com> <87tuiycr5e.fsf@yahoo.com> <87tuiyl2w1.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="8675"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Tim Cross Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 06 07:42:37 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mN7Ov-00029H-JI for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; 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Mon, 6 Sep 2021 05:40:25 +0000 Original-Received: by kubenode519.mail-prod1.omega.sg3.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 42c7ac906664ce5d3bdb82aff14688bb; Mon, 06 Sep 2021 05:40:20 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <87tuiyl2w1.fsf@gmail.com> (Tim Cross's message of "Mon, 06 Sep 2021 14:11:05 +1000") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.18924 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.188.206; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic311-25.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:274072 Archived-At: Tim Cross writes: > Regardless of debate on whether there are new users or not, evidence > indicates those who want spaces and those who want tabs are roughly > equally divided. Therefore, half those 'old' users are required to > change the setting regardless of what the default is. All your > argument seems to come down to is that your happy with the status quo > and don't want it to change because that is in-line with your > preference. That is fine, but is no stronger an argument than arguing > for the default to be changed - in this case, changing or not changing > based solely on level of annoyance is simply insufficient. So, if the default is changed, the other half of the "roughly equally divided" portion of the userbase will also have to change their settings, which means the entire userbase will have changed that settings. Which is more pleasant? To have the half of the userbase who have, for the most part, already done so, change their settings, or to have the other half of the userbase who have mostly not done so change their settings? > I would suggest very few people have ever fully read the manual before > using Emacs. Besides, the best way to read the manual is with Emacs, > so you already have a 'chicken and egg' situations. Furthermore, the > fact the default was already at the setting you wanted would indicate > you never needed to find this information and therefore are not in a > strong position to argue whether that is easy or not. On the other > hand, when I started using Emacs I did need to change the default and > I do recall it took some effort to work out how to do that - enough > effort to be annoying. As already stated, annoyance is an insufficient > criteria in this case because the two sides are roughly > equal. Understanding the expectations of new users may change that > balance and is therefore worth considering. The manual is available in print, and downloadable online in HTML, PostScript and PDF format. While the Emacs Info reader may be convenient, there is nothing preventing users from reading the manual in any of those other formats, or even an alternative Info reader, before reading the manual in Emacs, so I don't see how that is a problem. Emacs also has an Easy Customization interface. Even without reading the manual, one can simply search "indent tabs" inside the Easy Customization interface, and reach the option. If that fails, an apropos for 'indent tabs' turns up indent-tabs-mode as the first result. And if ignorance of the manual really is a problem, then how about finding a way to publicize the manual? For instance, a weekly post about the manual in comp.emacs, or r/emacs, or whatever happens to be popular ATM. There also seem to be cross-editor solutions for configuring these options on a per-file or a per-project basis, such as editor-config. If Emacs gains support for these solutions, they could potentially alleviate these problems in their entirety.