From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Help sought understanding shorthands wrt modules/packages Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2022 15:40:28 +0000 Message-ID: <87pmdxa1zn.fsf@gmail.com> References: <651bbe21-f179-730a-4f10-7dc6d27055ea@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="38600"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: Richard Stallman , Andrea Corallo , Eli Zaretskii , emacs-devel To: Gerd =?utf-8?Q?M=C3=B6llmann?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Nov 08 16:40:09 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1osQht-0009tZ-Ib for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 08 Nov 2022 16:40:09 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1osQh9-0004n7-SQ; Tue, 08 Nov 2022 10:39:23 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1osQh7-0004mY-9I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Nov 2022 10:39:22 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-wr1-x433.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::433]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1osQh5-00027y-GP; Tue, 08 Nov 2022 10:39:21 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-wr1-x433.google.com with SMTP id v1so21558356wrt.11; Tue, 08 Nov 2022 07:39:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date :references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:from:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=J69OFqFes2SRabUT6EgY6RB2mOmsnNvebqhiHpPLlXA=; b=ZijTKlQXyG9dFnGDFhGgjLNigLs8CCpfQnRnK/y5aI4oGCOBzjHr1QSfOJJyDPNqc9 4cdmQTUY8E1tXFc1TDsuae1sXrZHhWNsg01UPyfW7aihz4MqYiK+1Hm+NIogW3FSNMLR VKorDiUB5Jo6CsNlUCuzdcZYSSTrrvgjz032P7V3kLX7Y9Zx+xfj6HXp0QHi9dXq4UUi 8jhvtjHMMbOzhLE39MxyT6IcM56jr4m3lhGefhj5ZiWsj2yZDZ31UfUmg2yon/paaQri 2+riEQdd/hRgcwhLYtO1iO9fkrGKpwfV5ysCA4F6jlITZwn9g4hbrUJ9UikLYY7e36pF rJ3A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date :references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:from:x-gm-message-state:from :to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=J69OFqFes2SRabUT6EgY6RB2mOmsnNvebqhiHpPLlXA=; b=fp/m7zp5AaR9TNC92CAHSjGJ0LEBogRqjpuELRJCjnFBQRuAcMVFH0lM5k5kOy3ghW pf1MAZNdehH5fz2Hf0SloFk3RT3A85Qz0eHwFKxRDTk/N1WHhrXifph4yNuPNcLPcsbP sBpmfroRvwSCHJb++gfyMy9j0d4/lpMIXlE6r7WkJy/A2IhGiVPNxulQeudyQnfoqDOF 5PdSciIPJdR6emTrfyD6LPAwfpO7doNhtujt6jUXzkJ9Boexcd8S0ZNzQfbClIXyoDU2 3fbsAeEPbYYrIVvJ4qPPK1/RzK10DgiBFkgWfgsOtDBpji0Fb27SrDhI0uHH5s3Q0wK2 4h4w== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf0grk99vHNvWwC5dUn7wlnxa/lbyG2dYnGc9ES5LwsSKcblokzZ xtZ6T60kLG33/zoNcdvsilulAWj2rjM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM7rbtlLVAoBB/c1nYDlmIrEVhyvOPWqHpTXhKFZYePSryCZ9/rKNAHCsq/LDuCXlCF8MQTFgg== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:6dca:0:b0:22c:c6f9:57d2 with SMTP id d10-20020a5d6dca000000b0022cc6f957d2mr35946694wrz.474.1667921955620; Tue, 08 Nov 2022 07:39:15 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from krug ([87.196.81.1]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s1-20020a7bc381000000b003c6b874a0dfsm13614838wmj.14.2022.11.08.07.39.14 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 08 Nov 2022 07:39:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: ("Gerd =?utf-8?Q?M=C3=B6llmann=22's?= message of "Tue, 8 Nov 2022 11:35:59 +0100") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::433; envelope-from=joaotavora@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x433.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:299350 Archived-At: Gerd M=C3=B6llmann writes: > What I meant was using shorthands as the basis for a general mechanism > that somehow solves a "problem" that other languages use modules for. We're in violent agreement here. Shorthands are not a general mechanism for doing that, nor was it ever their purpose when I proposed them. > I mean, a design, or at least what I understand under a design, should > have at least briefly considered things like Eldoc, xref, completions, > and what else there is. But shorthands _do_ work with ElDoc, Xref, and completions, and likely anything that uses standard mechanisms to get the Elisp symbol at point. xref-find-definition (the M-. shortcut) works. The only main thing that I know of that doesn't work is xref-find-references, the C-? shortcut. And that's because the underlying backend for Elisp is based on... you guessed it, grep! See (cl-defmethod semantic-symref-perform-search ((tool semantic-symref-tool= -grep)) Also note that shorthands are not the only thing that "break grep", undermining such naive xref-find-references backends. Symbol indirection techniques such as (intern (format ...)) as found in e.g. xref-create-fetcher of xref.el are just as problematic. > I didn't see/hear this, and it only slowly comes up and generates "we > could do this or that". The only thing that remains to be done in shorthands is the xref-find-references support. Do you have that bit covered in your CL packages branch? I didn't check, but last I investigated, and saw real-world implementations of cross-referencing systems (in SBCL and Allegro CL), they were workable but not perfect either. > TBH, that reminds me a bit of Greenspun's tenth. But anyways, the ship > has sailed. Maybe. Ultimately, Greenspun and CL are misunderstood sailors at heart, but it shouldn't stop us from reaching for that boat. So I commend you for this work on CL packages, and hope you keep pushing it. If you want to discuss integration with other Emacs's facilities am I familiar with (ElDoc, completions, xref backend ideas), feel free to reach out. Jo=C3=A3o