From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Emanuel Berg Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What's missing in ELisp that makes people want to use cl-lib? Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2023 16:12:02 +0100 Message-ID: <87pm0jhsfx.fsf@dataswamp.org> References: <871qd8sfdx.fsf@posteo.net> <838r7g8pys.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkcbrgnr.fsf@posteo.net> <25924.21015.19614.951576@orion.rgrjr.com> <87bkc4jpja.fsf@dataswamp.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="24628"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:sczIUWYUQ0ssJjoHb16vQkHDglw= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Nov 09 16:29:56 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r16yi-00068i-1G for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 16:29:56 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r16xd-0005Tj-Tm; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 10:28:50 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r16hi-0000eh-84 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 10:12:22 -0500 Original-Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r16hf-0007RJ-N1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 10:12:21 -0500 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r16hc-0002a3-Bm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 16:12:16 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Mail-Copies-To: never Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 09 Nov 2023 10:28:47 -0500 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312418 Archived-At: Alan Mackenzie wrote: > Just take one look at this "reality" you're so supportive > of: the widespread use of cl-lib, not just in people's own > projects, but throughout the core of Emacs, has multiplied > the size of Lisp language part of Emacs by a factor of > around 3. So say I write a function like this, which has nothing to do with cl-lib BTW. (defun nand (&rest conditions) (when (member nil conditions) t) ) Some would say it is consistent, since we have `not' and `and', so why not NAND as well? Others would say it is cleaner in source than (not (and ...)) - especially if you find use of that recurring, since it is a single function, not a combination of two. Let's then say I put it in a package that makes its way into Emacs, and some people start to use it since they also find it consistent, clean, and useful. What has then happened? Have I introduced something that is clean, consistent, and useful? Or have I increased the size of the Lisp language by 1, making it harder for the maintainers to do their work? -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal