From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: An anonymous IRC user's opinion Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2024 10:44:02 +0200 Message-ID: <87plodsjsd.fsf@web.de> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="18867"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Emacs Devel To: "Abraham S.A.H." 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A. H.'s message of "Sun, 6 Oct 2024 09:32:15 +0200 (CEST)") X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:3Li/H/lISqarZbjZCgQV7Xh0e6KlmFgPtqfsl1m/DZVf5mmXWK8 lpYkLqfygyw11fT+9Kg+crfIT8CHJSVajh/c/TaSXFjd4g0hUI+yKqW38WCZRFSHGXnaRvB 5CIfkv16LsXZkvVUMEFWVam0cTw5z6ww76PpbB/QzEavwzeCFOy+cqpEbDEs31SZegWsqGU R1T+GuBxUKDPu7ZMkNtiQ== UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:RGDUgcFBHBw=;ojz/sXU+ueWy1Bz132Nz90jxPNt rCq/q6YtIqyB0F60E1Q7udqZxSUDuCaNcuznK3qZ1wIIftXlQzdYr19cugKRQSN6f0e505PZa AqGRrkh+YHbtLOCoN484dakcIQbNjzUb3pVErFdcRyM5X7CwUzw+FAjfxDu3omg6yZaRMV52K lJJ8Upmhty+j3YOy9Cvep/lQYCbC+M5FXcfkviYlwk6Vy8haYLE1xdWpeAU1SLDtfNo9JFRhu eBMgkhZdiHl2fOgRn5TuFHmvwA6sV/mjG70Vh5Uu3pOC39uB14TbFcMKjY76azOjPunj1277O wqqgaijAe2dzgORS05i5NmZiNBKfEaPZc1fRMr70ip5HrFtaiHefQBS/m7gNDmV/L1IFZz2Le ZBB4FNQ14aKz1FlL8P+mOX7Tb9Gm4u0dLiX4ZP2eszbh2bUeMk9KbJf1CkKKPkjbR3JJ9Nw0R 9cqi7NtAkWm8QCcx4Kb1ad7HQbkhj3ZJoVSRP9KcPdAGRsmJoZXGs51n9gZLjZ25i8+MR6sxI SdHu+8Vgc36EY/Yy/mfcGU9pvBZmmgqoyoRmMI++Utlo9VSllgtu/Uj4a+ycZWCfbTLspGAUC /enVFASessyPHKENO7P7soNxaT/VO/95SP2XZ5biE4ZHBfzRu7t/oQyemZE0P01noA7zZp1a7 qRm0litjShtG3+/63HN1QWr7uFFYQ38icR/tAbgpqPQX38gMbjjaMIIj6CPS/I9t+jtkjZIeE igy36OUdzNsk6tRogiRXW7hGpK/9EUa/Nn2NgE/s688PsMw5iwxTJRNxuDr8Te7H8OwYlDme Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.15.4; envelope-from=arne_bab@web.de; helo=mout.web.de X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_SAFE_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:324349 Archived-At: --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Abraham S.A.H." writes: > Isn't Emacs usable without any pre-configuration, out of the box? It is a good editor without any pre-configuration (it even ships org-mode). But to be a good Web-IDE, C++ or Scheme programming environment, Server automation plattform, and so forth, it requires configuration. Which might be a reason why it is discovered by writers, and why Spacemacs and Doom capture new people. > Another problem is that most of those newcomers start doing that > without reading Emacs' manual.=C2=A0 Now, that one has to be clearly > discouraged.=C2=A0 Doesn't matter how intuitive an interface is designed= , > it's always good to come with a manual, and Emacs comes with a very > good one.=C2=A0 And it's always advised to use a tool after or alongside > reading its documentation. No. Any software that says that you have to read the manual first is doomed to fail for most people. One of the best features of nano is that the important keybindings are shown directly on the screen. No documentation needed. We obviously can=E2=80=99t have *no* explanation, but if people have to re= ad more than an 80x30 screen of explanations, it=E2=80=99s too much. > =0C > > ** The audience of Doom: > > I think, Doom and Spacemacs were and are (at least, partially) > successful in attracting: > > 1. Previous vi, vim, or neovim users; > 2. Anyone who likes VI and VIM key bindings. You miss people who want their editor to look cool. There are a lot of visiual attractions built right into doom and Spacemacs from the start. > =0C > > ** A wizard to do the magic work: > > What about an initial interactive wizard buffer?=C2=A0 Many complicated > software actually come with that.=C2=A0 Prompting user to choose some > important options and to declare his/her use case and to notify him > about some important tips. Once we have a wizard, it becomes even more likely that people will stop before even starting. > An initial interactive wizard will force a beginner to pay attention > to notes, tips, suggestions, and warning along helping him/her to > interactively configure and prepare his/her Emacs for its first use. I don=E2=80=99t like the "force" here. Best wishes, Arne =2D- Unpolitisch sein hei=C3=9Ft politisch sein, ohne es zu merken. draketo.de --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQJEBAEBCAAuFiEE801qEjXQSQPNItXAE++NRSQDw+sFAmcCTdIQHGFybmVfYmFi QHdlYi5kZQAKCRAT741FJAPD69LsD/0XxpbohQgpKVZipnCM3Ws9/j+99Wayany8 PHLgTfL8JgUjphvYEGcNbnl0/xC6HdTlm4QAeo0Lpi6k6svEFPvpyhMvbhsnEBKM azBI4kcZOkYCC6+GX/1cnsSdq61WMS1JG6zDt7XbXHtlFl3bVW6/KzTMYvhXpKUE o/cIe3UvRuUYn1SuYU74CAYRbBGqlKazvnOKNvVNQPmInfYN/3f1ura+xadnlW+L /8U2k7OOrjU/cqcsPa4S7WX5uzO2LJpmY40T3svtSPfFohHtnXIJt7zJHxRTIe7S GU1ESSToGWcPcO6ggz0195vZ3xBh6CqN7BwIsxE6YSOqZuPZWlk97xo367djqg4E vcBwifKvPgZSUTGR66mzC51NHkhfJmgRWFiH2cJj/13okOgjX/oyig+sTjBuk13h gt9ssviKAvYWlIEo/88RGxDpzpVhkGsLRmxBeqnBnbQcuixbkD4wNhyQM6vF0a6D GJFUi9hO6cZQ/hZEzXkvOwCfDmrDFJrwT8mPXG89AWQVzQ8NMULlWsrn0W7Cj8O2 tRJtrWReYb3y2C1UqKi5w+Dn8UMFRdVpyWiCt7viWvFaV/pkwzFBt074SNKdq7uV yhvNf+8GSBo7veFnLH8vBviHb2qMSpwkL/UF4XqCCcEteloCnWsT2SmPHpS3aPgF 7i/zjzxnBYjEBAEBCAAuFiEE3Si95tmHXKvOSosd3M8NswvBBUgFAmcCTeIQHGFy bmVfYmFiQHdlYi5kZQAKCRDczw2zC8EFSOVbA/9nWn6li8kbH57tcnlXUPOfe5X9 U2WpzK77yTn3cXiyUi+JTr1UmzG/5YLMubxQTjuIP8Q1f3ratzTlY1V1ykNvEnVI zN0e2HeEIHqidYuba3e5yS/ymLh/9DvAE+ERYe0Xbaip1dItBL/sSrppvBghD+Gd j76XGjWY2DeksRjesg== =FZvm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--