From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: My resignation from Emacs development Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2024 07:57:19 +0800 Message-ID: <87plmoi1i8.fsf@yahoo.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="2889"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Nov 22 00:58:37 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1tEH4H-0000bt-6T for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 22 Nov 2024 00:58:37 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tEH3Q-0008Cv-Lk; Thu, 21 Nov 2024 18:57:44 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tEH3K-0008Ca-IW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 21 Nov 2024 18:57:39 -0500 Original-Received: from sonic301-32.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.184.201]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tEH3E-00006S-Bk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 21 Nov 2024 18:57:35 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1732233448; bh=FPWleXOSba1/RROqYWvgwNJuCqKdj03T3l7RtF6gLLE=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=kOX1cEUNYtXsyWI0oJjoUONYBOK87sZ8G3He15kQZCxESt1HUrdNVRwK4vTe0GzhrLCaCt25vgnKJ124LRJG/s+ogRgoTC0NNqk7ZsHIi/sZ2dTTkeqGIrpHvgX5IF6htRR1+iIdEs3KuNSCVKjaneRphiFHPP4oTap6XKUe6IohAq81kh73NVNtaDOaaYdYzucgtN/zos+2rnUWIiJxSrhZnIWtHvHxj+MRGNxbRLLGaVOTae6HRsgAmRwQUQZyfxvbORPezZJuTK3/y9FndVdkOzadQIFC505fTUWtamINn+H5CCEuRNrpZsIGIbwM/EDr46iGkSOtBXG32Bh4cA== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1732233448; bh=2EUPMBDeec3XlxXrJL5biR/rXOLwRfXjZ+khKggm27t=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=cdZlbhxGA/uAV0FDC+vq3bHG6S/CkF2PWLSm2qTgr3NtmhM7xMDMpXdFT04NQXh4RFqkTNcULR1a4dt3hjUO6ZR26TSKr5H6VYAqbY5BbXcVq3aDxUWAEnh9tc0UU9/w39o92pqDsdpMUpN9KkuGyyRsqnDqE317TUBmQdhxUd89ICxf8LmZEv0elBr3v+QqgZeqnLpbUsHuj/hL/IlcPTfJaeRNKuLlPJQkjNnGWcjUJRz16ULsmFUxMnmDA+S1qJpA7nh2YeJrXbKB1keGJhOGuCa/hun3IAO154uGOe1No2C+d+EhLIKUINhb4XU5/3Jmrz8fnSC8z1e0hauJEg== X-YMail-OSG: Z7S9lxEVM1kaHD_3opeAMAQtKO44oeD15DqoOBGN4FrRttmosnn07GsLPq3GW67 sRQkjC8gxo7BsZg_JPMi2aQXJUTcPVW6HUeQkEC6HOcwBiuSiNYQyqbF.byPpYqO_1ixqk5Uch0I jZvHVA6NRPD8qHbNPaq4eOukkHOu5jT1YhkEVegPFwYGagOEK7zek9dy0idCBbgKfMhgNms7scgK tA_p6ZDQmaQms8lROA2FZPUvuaf9gUGEV3bZc_25fQjaejGX1wCl1QyvkOc62.pTrAJ8RZcbgOoI s_Cv1DczygbWR_ptiNDcCAkeR24qL.PZsX4WaPAxiC1FRqjYQPMaIZ6HE8MN0hbchJ7.x.QyErDN T2qWQvZSVBHc9E6ab0L_7Ay4nLW1lYtifqSQt8UP_4S10iGsHoyY8OfFsTVJXg8eaTbTBXFkhZXj 5GLf1fUptXZV_TWpunMcSUSp12UQI6R57cngOfqhqu.cKw_czAAr97IWn9ijjc_KfV3sEIq4mQQ7 qj9mac6Wr.kb0FC.Mk1p.zheSj9kO2QMa96gCYayWebttN4YEBAXakgKGMBq8pJqHMlcvSR4FHrp U9BojqAS.7ROvM46dqAMCuyzn41JA3_5aNCYhLie4ZRxQK5I3XZJhH765eKJ7Z1hthGoEoPLUE_l ecwuurhKLm0skwXcyCuR5.f7IRiNbTHPo39G7i4.L6doY.pCaDvKLPkDsp3ndR4cB2GqFhPhP08K e0VcEpqPqqv44Fb9WuySj8CJIScHbHoD_fRjhveOxq1MMSvmjSeGY_Ywl1KgysaOT5ZmbzgI.0gy GI43KRjYWM4v8yOnBsG6obb6EnrfcPPO0aWfmeCjl5 X-Sonic-MF: X-Sonic-ID: 2f0a4226-5b93-40e7-807d-2ccb681a176c Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic301.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 21 Nov 2024 23:57:28 +0000 Original-Received: by hermes--production-sg3-5b7954b588-kwfpq (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 5e0d88b40366bd46b867232e1df5fdea; Thu, 21 Nov 2024 23:57:23 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Wed, 20 Nov 2024 15:13:18 +0000") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.22941 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.184.201; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic301-32.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_SAFE_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:325565 Archived-At: Alan Mackenzie writes: > Hello, Emacs. > > I'm resigning my position as Emacs contributor. > > The immediate reason is that, as maintainer of CC Mode, CC Mode's > symbols, its names, were taken by Emacs and used for other purposes > without informing me, much less consulting me. That makes my position as > CC Mode maintainer here untenable. > > Eli Zaretskii and I have had extensive discussions, both in public and in > private email, over the last week or so, but we have been unable to reach > any satisfactory compromise solution. > > Names are important. They have power. To take somebody's/somthing's > name and misuse it is an exercise of aggression. Try using "Emacs" or > even "free software" to mean something different, and see just how > quickly you would hear back from Richard Stallman. This misuse of CC > Mode's "trademarks", the symbols `c-mode', `c++-mode', and perhaps > `c-or-c++-mode', is just such an act of aggression. > > These symbols have been appropriated by Emacs to mean "the current > preferred mode for C", etc., rather than C Mode, C++ Mode etc. In > certain circumstances, in particular, in Local Variables: sections and > auto-mode-alist, there is now no longer any way unambiguously to specify > C Mode or C++ Mode. Up till recently ("\\.myc\\'" . c-mode) in > auto-mode-alist meant C Mode, and would have had the effect of > auto-loading CC Mode, if needed, and running C Mode. > > The change took place in the commit for bug#69191 "New var > `major-mode-remap-defaults`, for packages". It sounds so innocent, but > is an extremely bad solution for whatever problem (unspecified in the > commit message) it was intended to solve. A major mode using it changes > the interfaces of other libraries in an uncontrolled way. This is not > good software engineering. > > This bug was raised and committed by Stefan Monnier. Despite the fact > that the bug fix directly impinged upon CC Mode, and there was even a > change to cc-mode.el in the patch, he failed even to inform me. The only > two modes substantially affected by this change were ruby-mode and CC > Mode, and it is clear that Dmitry Gutov, maintainer of ruby-mode, was > aware of the change. Had I known of this proposal, I would certainly > have objected to it. Stefan is intelligent enough to have realised this, > and maybe his avoidance of open discussion was motivated by this. > > Bug#69191 was a big change. In Emacs, we have a convention whereby big > changes are discussed openly on emacs-devel and a consensus reached > before the change is made. Stefan Monnier has regularly violated this > convention, possibly believing that his ideas for Emacs are so good as to > be beyond question. Any attempt to question his ideas is likely to be > met by evasive non-answers, if any response at all is forthcoming. I > could give several paragraphs worth of justification for these > assertions, but I think everybody here knows I am right. > > In Emacs there is also a convention of treating eachother with respect on > the mailing lists. Sadly this convention is superficial, and seems only > to mean things like not using swear words. The truly contemptuous > communication style, this evasive non-answering, seems to be regarded as > acceptable. I suggest that this change. > > Stefan's habit of making big changes in Emacs without seeking consensus > is at the heart of why I am resigning. These changes have caused Emacs a > lot of damage over the years and have caused other contributors, > including me, extra work and difficulty. Stefan is a Jekyll-and-Hyde > character. On the one hand, he's a very capable hacker, and is always > ready to help others with technical questions. On the other hand, as > mentioned, he is contemptuous of the Emacs conventions, and unlike > Richard and Eli, does not have the gift of knowing what the Right Thing > is. > > I strongly recommend that Stefan somehow be reigned in and required to > observe Emacs's conventions about open discussion and courteous > communication. As I mentioned, his violations of these are at the core > of why I feel unable to continue contributing to Emacs. > > I will shortly be unsubscribing from emacs-devel. I intend to carry on > maintaining stand alone CC Mode, and I'm prepared to deal with any CC > Mode issues which arise in Emacs. Please post these to > bug-cc-mode@gnu.org. > > It just remains to say that my respect for Eli and the other maintainers > remains undiminished, and that I wish all of them and the Emacs project > all success in the future. I trust that I speak for everyone in saying that we regret that it has come to a departure on such bad terms, and would all of us prefer it if you were to reconsider your decision. I'm inclined to agree with your observations concerning communication on this list.