From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Engster Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs contributions, C and Lisp Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2015 20:42:11 +0100 Message-ID: <87oaqdt3os.fsf@engster.org> References: <83bnxuzyl4.fsf@gnu.org> <874n3ke1qn.fsf@engster.org> <87sir336qn.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <20140301215057.GA19461@thyrsus.com> <87fvn1y0vx.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87fvn0senq.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <8761nusb90.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87vbkovhh7.fsf@engster.org> <87387rvobr.fsf@engster.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1420486974 3447 80.91.229.3 (5 Jan 2015 19:42:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 19:42:54 +0000 (UTC) Cc: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jan 05 20:42:48 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Y8DXs-00063m-AM for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 05 Jan 2015 20:42:32 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33776 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y8DXr-0000ZX-Lp for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 05 Jan 2015 14:42:31 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:47664) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y8DXn-0000ZI-Kh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 05 Jan 2015 14:42:28 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y8DXk-0006dx-Vb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 05 Jan 2015 14:42:27 -0500 Original-Received: from randomsample.de ([5.45.97.173]:36896) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y8DXk-0006d2-N4; Mon, 05 Jan 2015 14:42:24 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=randomsample.de; s=a; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From; bh=Q5dXnZP1UDkcIAjvg80tkt9gKrn4y9fB7Fl57DI4Cfw=; b=m4IIqEfCZ02dyw0v0fnw8Ls0XjHFCmINjYGRI1F2CqeoBsGjklmbZmIDZaK+qa7F3+RLWXTlb6CadFg42glqEHnaEQkLYIwuWRqVGxrR8lhkmVakNnarLMUGMMDjXsgk; Original-Received: from ip4d154cb9.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de ([77.21.76.185] helo=spaten) by randomsample.de with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Y8DXc-0008Bi-Ao; Mon, 05 Jan 2015 20:42:16 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Mon, 05 Jan 2015 12:50:42 -0500") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13001 (Ma Gnus v0.10) Emacs/24.3.91 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 5.45.97.173 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:181005 Archived-At: Richard Stallman writes: > > I understand that. What I'm saying is: For almost five years now (since > > gcc 4.5 introduced plugins), access to GCC's AST is wide open for > > everyone. However, in all that time (and to my knowledge) no one has > > used that to feed non-free backends, and that is in my opinion enough > > evidence that your worries are unfounded. They might have been valid in > > the past, but not since LLVM and clang have joined the scene. > > Since LLVM and Clang are not copylefted, they invite nonfree extensions. > They are a gaping hole in the defensive wall around our city. It seems we are unable to communicate. My paragraph above was not about Clang and LLVM, but that the door to GCC's AST is already open. That ship has sailed. > > > To figure out just what Emacs needs, that's the task I am talking > > > about. > > > If you want to support things like completions, refactoring, symbol > > searches, etc., we need full access to the AST from inside Emacs. > > With all due respect, it is so important to avoid the full AST > that I'm not going to give up on it just because someone claims > that is necessary. And with the same respect, I choose to not invest more time on this. It was you who told me to abandon libclang and choose GCC instead. And now that I'm working on that, I only get confronted with vague restrictions like "you may only export what you need for completions". Of course, the nice thing about free software is that I don't need your approval. However, it is clear to me now that I cannot depend on GCC's plugin infrastructure, as there's the very real risk that you shut that door as soon as someone uses it to export the AST. -David