From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: char equivalence classes in search - why not symmetric? Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2015 22:31:10 +0900 Message-ID: <87oahd11i9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <2a7b9134-af2a-462d-af6c-d02bad60bbe8@default> <834mjecdy7.fsf@gnu.org> <38061f42-eaf1-47c6-b74d-f676ac952b18@default> <83r3miatvl.fsf@gnu.org> <21998.29683.916211.867479@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <9A972800-D8F0-4DA8-877E-07D5BDC2E1F9@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1441719095 29279 80.91.229.3 (8 Sep 2015 13:31:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2015 13:31:35 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Jean-Christophe Helary Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 08 15:31:26 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZZIzc-0002Ps-4e for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 08 Sep 2015 15:31:24 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:34074 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZZIzb-0007mh-U1 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 08 Sep 2015 09:31:23 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:49517) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZZIzX-0007m2-Bt for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Sep 2015 09:31:20 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZZIzT-0000wz-Ck for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Sep 2015 09:31:19 -0400 Original-Received: from shako.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.161]:33443) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZZIzT-0000w0-3s for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Sep 2015 09:31:15 -0400 Original-Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by shako.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5EE6D1C387E; Tue, 8 Sep 2015 22:31:10 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3A61A11EF83; Tue, 8 Sep 2015 22:31:10 +0900 (JST) In-Reply-To: <9A972800-D8F0-4DA8-877E-07D5BDC2E1F9@gmail.com> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta34) "kale" ffb5abc8dc4e XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x (barebone) [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 130.158.97.161 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:189708 Archived-At: Jean-Christophe Helary writes: > Let's just put flags that trigger case/diacritic matching, they > could be on in default emacs, but they should be somewhere. They're already there. The discussion here is entirely about the DWIM UI of isearch that allows requesting strict matching by having at least one uppercase or accented character, even though lax mode is enabled. Drew prefers a UI that enables/disables strict mode using a special isearch command bound to a key. That would be plausible, if the DWIM UI for case fold search in isearch weren't 3 decades old. But the DWIM UI *is* 3 decades old, and successful. Drew disputes that, but in the 25 years I've followed Emacs development this is the first time I've seen anybody complain about the DWIM-ish case folding feature. Note that incremental case-folded search (usually with no escape for strict matching!) has been widely adopted in web and file browsers. I'm +1 on generalizing this UI to "diacritic folding" in isearch. The other question is that of Ulrich M=C3=BCller, who points out that it's natural for him to type his name correctly, but he'd like to laxly match Mueller and Muller, too.[1] It's a valid use case, obviously, but based on an analogy to experience with DWIMish case-folding in Emacs, I believe most users will quickly adjust to typing "muller" when they want a poor man's version of full "orthographic equivalence". Individuals may not, but I believe the great majority will, since I'm sure it's anatomically easier to type "muller" than "M=C3=BCller", even on a German keyboard. Footnotes:=20 [1] Drew also argues this point, but from an abstract insistence on "symmetry", which doesn't really exist here for representational, anatomical, psychological reasons, and let's not forget personal historical reasons like "M=C3=BCller is my name".