From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ingo Lohmar Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Is it time to drop ChangeLogs? Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 20:51:15 +0100 Message-ID: <87oaanctvw.fsf@acer.localhost.com> References: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83vb50wxhv.fsf@gnu.org> <87y49vz4cg.fsf@acer.localhost.com> <64a52598-ad53-498c-993c-67d7827dbdfc@default> <838u1uuuau.fsf@gnu.org> <878u1um2xl.fsf@thinkpad.rath.org> <87fuw090k7.fsf@wanadoo.es> <83y49spuxt.fsf@gnu.org> <87pov4achc.fsf@acer.localhost.com> <83r3fkpb3u.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1457553141 2135 80.91.229.3 (9 Mar 2016 19:52:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 19:52:21 +0000 (UTC) Cc: ofv@wanadoo.es, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Mar 09 20:52:20 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1adk9b-0006wp-Dp for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 20:52:19 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:43795 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adk9a-0003A0-OS for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 14:52:18 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:53944) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adk8h-0001tu-Rr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 14:51:24 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adk8g-000790-I2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 14:51:23 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-wm0-x22b.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c09::22b]:33284) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adk8c-00075i-MC; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 14:51:18 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-wm0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id l68so979218wml.0; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 11:51:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:user-agent:date :message-id:mime-version; bh=013eGbQDCTnT0vRvv5gHHTa3ae11jsm8oioqPVRtpUg=; b=qUZyJOS0s0PGFmtDTCWz8fldgku/Xh5q9cgQWniSohU4EHuQrGrKzj4OKcLfPxjuIs wiWZMxy6g8Du/C3e3/reNusN3yTVQ9clX9AXYUudSXK3m/f1mJEjA2kfeHJgAp6fGeI0 sSn63fnfmesI9sVxKQOkC+vMASytwImuByF7yHRzxpo3Bz4QznNKoANXfefcaZm7TSEj OasqS9PaDroXqUsnccaKUsbPFwueHGHwpyiGMlPHU4gjeUCmxQkN1HP2buHrEkS3swWy tX3tZcuZwk1AfzExizk8PNABNvNuKJxRl+phcwWN9ycTWQsqvsS0A9ObFzAeES377zxy 8FCg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references :user-agent:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=013eGbQDCTnT0vRvv5gHHTa3ae11jsm8oioqPVRtpUg=; b=VxL9f4LAUNXlImjqyQv3spKwbVuvKOZg6UCUkIOPMyaRZLFBWWKMmz7f2pkA7++PyZ FxYJvN+v0vV69o3TIWrQTmgqXLzKK9wGuMvVwbtSvWh5T4FOyKnIJOyRj2okpxy/DXR/ OkxbrVcq2LSE+eNbkC9RpRs2m1r7WyzOtI+MzKHlfN/FAFDF/gx2TZW1WloRkTVnFp0V LcBtnycm22C1Ez2/0SBPwsBKbPE441NxsBGh+a05UtzlbO3g7S8e6Z+Um2LM5j11Iged QrEBanrAM/3p+VpQTuh3cKSWxMAJDyfQQD9KiRNOnX4ZFf2Ic/CKsy1EKYSMA0P0HBaZ 58ZQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJIyusidox/6FnDlQl2lYETgaOJbSbAOLPNLCiH6fiz0ECvqJ0IQHkLsshnedCMxNw== X-Received: by 10.28.35.16 with SMTP id j16mr75712wmj.78.1457553077746; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 11:51:17 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from localhost (xdsl-87-78-49-57.netcologne.de. [87.78.49.57]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e19sm184316wmd.1.2016.03.09.11.51.16 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 09 Mar 2016 11:51:16 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <83r3fkpb3u.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Notmuch/0.20.2+113~g6332e6e (http://notmuchmail.org) Emacs/25.0.90.1 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:400c:c09::22b X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:201307 Archived-At: Hi Eli, On Wed, Mar 09 2016 05:46 (+0200), Eli Zaretskii wrote: > That's because some people don't seem to read the thread, and keep > coming up with the same incorrect arguments time and again. Ok, so now we have established that we both think the other is not reading the read "correctly" :) >> "git log" messages cannot technically be both immutable and >> unreliable: At least there is some severely imprecise use of >> language going on. > > You need to read the thread to understand what is being alluded to. > "Unreliable" in the sense that its text includes mistakes and cannot > be trusted. I realized that this may seem like nitpicking and apologized in my other response. > Emacs development doesn't work by requiring each commit be posted for > review as prerequisite for committing, so what Oscar suggests is not > possible. (Please don't ask why, it was explained many times > already.) Do you mean in this thread or elsewhere? I would honestly appreciate it if you could point me to such a discussion, as I am not aware of the arguments. In fact, in this very thread, the previous Emacs maintainer has contemplated an automatic queueing system, so it surprises me that such a scheme should be totally out of the question. (Note that I have not advocated any specific means, like posting each patch for review. I realize there is a lot of work and little time, and I greatly appreciate your constant work on Emacs.) > >> The whole argument for Changelogs comes down to a) being an established >> band-aid to clean up spilt milk, or b) providing a fixed-form summary of >> things that can be obtained using the VCS (provided the humans or tools >> wirting the Changelog are as "reliable" as the VCS). > > Find a better and more reliable way of dealing with the problems > described here, and I'll be the first to agree not to reintroduce > ChangeLogs. Several solutions to both a) and b) were proposed in this thread.