From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Michael Albinus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: debbugs tracker builds character Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 21:34:17 +0200 Message-ID: <87oa5s5cjq.fsf@gmx.de> References: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83vb50wxhv.fsf@gnu.org> <87y49vz4cg.fsf@acer.localhost.com> <87twg2g86g.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83eg76n5h5.fsf@gnu.org> <87y45eeoor.fsf@lifelogs.com> <577D42BB.1020500@cs.ucla.edu> <87oa694rfw.fsf@russet.org.uk> <837fcxlbay.fsf@gnu.org> <87lh1d2wg5.fsf@russet.org.uk> <83eg75jk5h.fsf@gnu.org> <87lh1cb6p0.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87oa5sa176.fsf_-_@lifelogs.com> <874m7kmkcm.fsf@gmx.de> <87zipc8gx2.fsf@lifelogs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1469043331 24052 80.91.229.3 (20 Jul 2016 19:35:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 19:35:31 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Jul 20 21:35:16 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1bPxH0-0004Sg-7h for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 20 Jul 2016 21:35:14 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:36668 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bPxGz-0002HM-I7 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 20 Jul 2016 15:35:13 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:46324) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bPxGE-0002DT-JC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 20 Jul 2016 15:34:30 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bPxG8-0004lY-IW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 20 Jul 2016 15:34:25 -0400 Original-Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.20]:65416) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bPxG8-0004lS-81 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 20 Jul 2016 15:34:20 -0400 Original-Received: from detlef.gmx.de ([87.146.40.63]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx102) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MN748-1bS96w1Czg-006cBh for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2016 21:34:18 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87zipc8gx2.fsf@lifelogs.com> (Ted Zlatanov's message of "Wed, 20 Jul 2016 11:31:37 -0400") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.1.50 (gnu/linux) X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:GHYl2dErEmTzIQ2zW21Jxj06uli+rp9ebkVb0F8ErWfr2n9+H4m HrBPdhvoPS8deSNj1zKWUTkYVAQE+qiS+DZ2S89ZFZkeBceRQmMx84oYx6EMV0Apxg72QuN wsufILaUetBLAgL2Nr7WbgRDoSc4XUHkghkYbodgfOg6FJA8EyeC7DoLDvKAgFIKdh/fri5 ljBQbKFbD7sPNZGbZ/oyg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:XwLzcS+qYm8=:3gKJTkvUIeAfkQnExIcuIj QN0cBfLKju+z4GMNpb5bWUgt2RdiscRwIwQL1H+z3PAQRb58yJ74/Qxc1fCUYPyKYQZGC/405 GO9KBdkqqUBrMgSA6KmPWfh6AcV4fM26FnyNbOKp1hH2CPOk2Tmrfr0SVHbCPl33MddTVwjwp AksllKYVGgotyR9J+1Lwl5S2nMQewp65SrxeRAQk6AzLIOgJyrVZqfL4lBsV/uvrsocgqOwVu tESAHTTH4ukjy44hrC2ici2FrlCANb/+NTJENNHe6cD9Aw2KItiS/k9JDzWzq/r5e1+OjEx2k y8xVgKEgYQ3wb6NelBa/m3pEA2CabBlOXqF0cPOg35CPOY2BLoS/7ES8Xo5Vae6821A/qVHBl djqHbXrpJe4r2JdoFrPsT23I5tNLxGy65j3n/HTg2o8wXw06N1DVOWDI+ujQDP5vo+WnmH0Bh lwKUDMf9kEdCIAHSsel2vmlww2dBIQPvDLP8tUrz+o2crcRpL00JZmKXwtTwvPd5hREH4X6oa L8D+f1iZTV0N6ZoTNEMNEQCOFBJTbXAgszZa5iXXFPAg1UMcmvgcYRjRVHUajCPZEsGtB0HyB 3RdKFTU/UN6Zx2/8JOkYqQGhX8/zYRWvkxxhJRc4FezpoAYEPWo2Sr6+T5OPt5m1bZYKF7mC3 +TV9p3n/dvB/nwSQY3JseuxanPejGf42p6n4yeRQ2R0mSg26G4uKpBShYaXxg/008d9kjgfnA XUdVPb2SktdWXHhpnkh6C+hc03ez757q4orT8/gnY+pP7R0czrPOm9/VbcxgxRxF0zi0OlO3 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 212.227.17.20 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:205914 Archived-At: Ted Zlatanov writes: Hi Ted, >>> I wish I knew why people find the current bug tracker acceptable. It >>> reminds me of the old ftpmail/DEC gatekeeper where you sent e-mails >>> requesting files: > > MA> One of the requirements for a bug tracker for Emacs was, that it must be > MA> possible to control everything via email. That's one of the reasons > MA> debbugs was chosen. > > IMHO that's not an actual requirement. It's an implementation detail. That thread is the 10 years old discussion on emacs-devel, which ended up in deciding for debbugs. And I find the reasoning for using email still convincing. > On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 15:44:03 +0200 Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote: > > LI> The web interface? No, that's not a very pleasant interface, but I > LI> think `M-x debbugs-gnu' is a better bug tracker interface than most. :-) > > There's a separation between the UI and the underlying functionality. > > IMHO, the underlying bug tracker is extremely limited. > > IMVHO, the `M-x debbugs-gnu' UI is decent but only because of a lot of > hacking, and the same UI could be applied to other bug trackers. In > other words, the reasons why it's good are not due to the bug tracker. I > could be wrong on this, though, I don't know the internals well, I've > just looked through the code. In general, you are right. First there was debbugs.el, which is a backend talking to the debbugs server (of Gnu or of Debian, both works). debbugs-gnu.el (and debbugs-org.el) were written years later, being just the UI, and being directed to the Gnu debbugs server. So there exist already a separation, although the interface between debbugs.el and debbugs-gnu.el is mainly driven by functions offered from debbugs.el. > On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 16:58:24 +0200 Michael Albinus > wrote: > > MA> Patches welcome! Or at least precise proposals what you would like to > MA> get improved. "VCS integration" sounds too vague to me. > > The bug tracker should be aware of repositories, branches, commits, > contributors, and ticket links or mentions in commit messages. > Contributors should be able to tag and notify each other. Markdown etc. > should be well supported. Inline code comments should be easy, and > linked to a commit (so an updated commit can resolve the comment). This > is just the essential stuff. Some of this exist already (tags), maybe underdocumented. For the rest I must at least sleep one night :-) > I think this is not something you can solve with patches or good UI. It > requires a tool architected correctly from the start. Such tools exist aplenty. A practical counter-argument: do you believe that debbugs is *such* bad that the vast majority of Emacs developers will follow you for a new bug tracker? I'm not a debbugs missionary, but in my daily work I found it sufficient. Somehow. > Ted Best regards, Michael.