From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: hw Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Some developement questions Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2018 01:23:53 +0200 Organization: my virtual residence Message-ID: <87o9d7bryw.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <8336v6cvem.fsf@gnu.org> <877ekigiiw.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <837ekhb2me.fsf@gnu.org> <87zhxcbmtr.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83in409lub.fsf@gnu.org> <871sanb71j.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83y3cu7t9j.fsf@gnu.org> <87lg8t2ki9.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <20180827015422.lcq44zvsjffeau4j@Ergus> <83a7p76f5e.fsf@gnu.org> <87lg8p9o6y.fsf@russet.org.uk> <83pnxx1foj.fsf@gnu.org> <87bm9d9zs9.fsf@russet.org.uk> <87efe75v02.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <87sh2lu471.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <87r2i4p2f8.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <83r2i4rmg7.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1536449257 10542 195.159.176.226 (8 Sep 2018 23:27:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 23:27:37 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (gnu/linux) Cc: spacibba@aol.com, phillip.lord@russet.org.uk, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Sep 09 01:27:33 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fymdY-0002eU-Sv for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 09 Sep 2018 01:27:33 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:45480 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fymff-0007Qy-2s for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 08 Sep 2018 19:29:43 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:45367) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fymeW-0006yC-Dv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 08 Sep 2018 19:28:33 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fymeS-0002mm-Ke for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 08 Sep 2018 19:28:31 -0400 Original-Received: from mo6-p00-ob.smtp.rzone.de ([2a01:238:20a:202:5300::3]:18263) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fymeK-0002aq-Ie; Sat, 08 Sep 2018 19:28:20 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1536449298; s=strato-dkim-0002; d=adminart.net; h=References:Message-ID:Date:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From: X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH:From:Subject:Sender; bh=DW10945AnJuQvhazniQfQ9Wi1bF8yo06bHnzM7AhRxU=; b=anjglm/W+Fl8sj9XLDMeC02vt+IPHuNEjKtT9ILCy6qJ97BXYF4fI8GYnpLbE61miB 6sagQHjksvAaAXKZWcjPkst464yHLidTTqxV7imv1IDSu3ayBT43hlFvblWZuw+dbFHV mTuKgukmkMIEFq6//BUUJQFBDaYXRoEScpLb4gZnM3h3gPHcJVO79PWfaHSuc6SIc49V a3Sfq9YIGmwfSRYXFnWL+SxZPIzMyK103NWJMFuRN+YRzWaCBNeaGLw40rjVwdwGDfBp kVVBQDVSsYDI+4Dnc6/e6CmGzz+br8/tPQNi81kbH6Sm5pZfBwZjkGSP7i4YiffVa3pK xAaw== X-RZG-AUTH: ":O2kGeEG7b/pS1FS4THaxjVF9w0vVgfQ9xGcjwO5WMRo5c+h5ceMqQWZ3yrBp+AVdIIwXjneEe9k=" X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Original-Received: from himinbjorg.adminart.net by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 44.0 DYNA|AUTH) with ESMTPSA id e03b99u88NSEDtr (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (curve secp521r1 with 521 ECDH bits, eq. 15360 bits RSA)) (Client did not present a certificate); Sun, 9 Sep 2018 01:28:14 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from toy.adminart.net ([192.168.3.55]) by himinbjorg.adminart.net with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1fymeE-0001rR-1p; Sun, 09 Sep 2018 01:28:14 +0200 In-Reply-To: <83r2i4rmg7.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 08 Sep 2018 19:19:36 +0300") X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2a01:238:20a:202:5300::3 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229523 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: hw >> Cc: eliz@gnu.org, phillip.lord@russet.org.uk, spacibba@aol.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org >> Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2018 15:02:51 +0200 > [...] >> >> Beginners will probably consider "the normal way to do cursor motion in >> Emacs" as the most complicated and awkward way to do cursor motion >> anywhere. > [...] >> Tutorials which take this into account more strongly might be more >> encouraging to use Emacs in the first place, and then beginners might >> want to learn the special movement keys. > > The Emacs tutorial already mentions the arrow keys, before it teaches > the more ergonomic cursor motion keys. My point is not which particular keys to use but that the tutorial doesn't fly because it makes false assumptions --- in this case about the efficiency with which certain keys can be pressed which largely depends on + the users and their skill-level in 10-finger typing, + the equipment in use and + the difficulty of un-learning the usage of arrow keys which might have already been practised to a rather high and extremely efficient skill-level over decades and is still needed everywhere else --- which lead the tutorial to lengthly go into explanations about irrelevant key bindings rather than about relevant ones which prevents it from picking up beginners where they think they are so that confidence can be instilled in them that they can learn Emacs, and trust that Emacs isn't difficult to use at all.