From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Making Emacs more friendly to newcomers Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 10:06:51 +0800 Message-ID: <87o8rlbnic.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <863691n4xl.wl-me@enzu.ru> <87imhw431x.fsf@yahoo.com> <87mu78huhx.fsf_-_@yahoo.com> <87k12bdgx7.fsf@yahoo.com> <87a736wyed.fsf@yahoo.com> <2F7AD0CB-FF83-4244-BD77-7E0460A77762@icloud.com> <87wo6a7abj.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="5215"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: =?utf-8?Q?S=C3=A9bastien?= Gendre , Emacs developers To: =?utf-8?B?7KGw7ISx67mI?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Apr 21 04:07:51 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jQiKF-0001FL-NQ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 04:07:51 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46568 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQiKD-00069V-W0 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 22:07:50 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:38422) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQiJW-0005H7-A9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 22:07:06 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQiJS-000391-Do for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 22:07:06 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic314-22.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.189.148]:39531) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQiJR-000386-Vg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 22:07:02 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1587434820; bh=K4hUbp9N8719RJQyBAOq3YiwXb3Au5izpD6FizCro7U=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=moE5ITkkNV+muoruqCFU9OKCiuSaGsESM8Z3OXIgkMX/xvXTlvxCGy/ZSxzqQ37mkv/RZEhzFqC4AzxViAv+eKglGWLaznbi5mHQv9KS8xjm7hPgKI7xqo4c8otXQCyFCxAnAClHcMP/LhY4qUI6lV2GdrwAjXLVWbzs9xD+GkATTP2jl4WB0nDOjQNkQ6kn7QLsDRywOry8s9YDFt5M3/BQxX2wvzCyj1KfOAJRwOoOeQc8zGorwJzcKDeWG015saCfI94C1ToXczb5gumKvkIgDieiqQj4rqi2j2/wSYfNQVNxQYqfczk1gOplkCjDG+IoFJvGNslvjHkmaePqtQ== X-YMail-OSG: AZ3VQcwVM1mmqlAQym_PI79v7FdGearHON1iSFvWPtHwr38Fwt5Mdh_1UzbTF53 88Z3YnkEKgqCMrm0l7f3YbzYPvrWmepyykBEpywAWMkcKIaxO_CV4gTF.MSz63EfJ6ZS6oI.Q7.v Okm7XnB6zPUyDMHDwbF2cV8cEDR1eh5lwN2KPabCv4dUIksrcfLcAY7Aywx2wEq5QZO_20KZPqkf 85yU1d4cMBc2r2Vyyj3XmCkeMz0Y321GNQH_L5rV_gJBLGHoX5jJ37RBE_spwz1ll8l1c6Ft4h_z 4kCbTXWPGu5VygKB7gekAlImjHAh__Mowun.UlgH1_b_TZnlD184UflCeOJrW4fRe6zWoDNp7mU_ HV5ByOoAzxrBNKtqY19_ongNBbljdCmswMUX1JYl.npwZMfow1bhQubz0meCGebade2CmPvqakTh pxGD_KCUvIlvu7IOZJvygZUFPJj23QBhwneIf8ii6fxovEVXjUS6z.B911Gk.skkyWuKG8Na1E5O DeNXQZu7tl9fc9fGRaqsjozDguQINy519oF85GDO.Wp_2fMORfMpfKOujChrtk_YW81Upx2iboyL 2AvXoxhnsbQ7QbJ7x_NmlOnLrs.BI2_u8uhchAZsiiTuaxZDc5aIl7aj8oxy4UdiN0J7MRR5qdSr TdxI3XiEeamP74RFH00ntx4b6Ko8hx25cLtnr5U00_8MNQMq8ToMbrnpj2EW0.lc.zhJzrR55mDv TcwrnwbVxFawPcOw11p1lXRW5Zcv3L6jpElz70HMSceYqEEaeVDLgqfPK9ReZBUxmcekYRbbz3KR u.TIXVrdouN9DpVI4a4dVgJlkJTuNcU5FLxZNZQM5p Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic314.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 02:07:00 +0000 Original-Received: by smtp431.mail.sg3.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 8af4cfcf10085318df5c35d6437d0f68; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 02:06:54 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: (=?utf-8?B?IuyhsOyEseu5iCIncw==?= message of "Mon, 20 Apr 2020 22:07:55 +0900") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15739 hermes Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.189.148; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic314-22.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/04/20 22:07:00 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.1-3.10 X-Received-From: 66.163.189.148 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247441 Archived-At: =EC=A1=B0=EC=84=B1=EB=B9=88 writes: > Then you can turn on =E2=80=98vanilla-mode=E2=80=99 on your init.el and c= all it a day. > =E2=80=98vanilla-mode=E2=80=99 will be the current situation of Emacs - i= t will try to > be stable. Experience shows that major changes are not as easy to revert as a single `(vanilla-mode 1)'. > Why? If you=E2=80=99re fine with the current level of changes in Emacs, t= hat would > be the level of changes in =E2=80=98vanilla-mode=E2=80=99. What do you mean? I haven't seen the default binding for `C-v` changed in about 25 years. It would be a shame if it changed now. > I=E2=80=99m saying that one can add a variable like =E2=80=98expected-ema= cs-version=E2=80=99 and > when Emacs is loading init.el and =E2=80=98expected-emacs-version=E2=80= =99 is different > from the current version, Emacs can warn you. That assumes the person with the config puts that variable in, and anyway it makes for more maintenance burden. > No, it doesn=E2=80=99t. Better defaults help users and allow them to ligh= ten their > configuration. There is no "better default". There's only the default that remains stable and so far happens to work for everyone. > The balance I=E2=80=99m suggesting (actually ndame) is to add a =E2=80=98= vanilla-mode=E2=80=99 for > people who value stability over features. You can't stuff major changes in a `vanilla-mode'. > No, it doesn=E2=80=99t - see previous comments. Yes it does. I can't be bothered to put an extra line in my .emacs for every tiny change users decide they want.