From: Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net>
To: Daniel Mendler <mail@daniel-mendler.de>
Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Stepping Back: A Wealth Of Completion systems Re: [ELPA] New package: vertico
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2021 21:13:22 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <87o8eplxgt.fsf@posteo.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <cde41cf7-4ef9-f7ed-f435-95d4e3c0fb80@daniel-mendler.de> (Daniel Mendler's message of "Wed, 7 Apr 2021 18:57:02 +0200")
Daniel Mendler <mail@daniel-mendler.de> writes:
> On 4/7/21 6:20 PM, Philip Kaludercic wrote:
>> Well that is because imenu presents the options in the minibuffer, and
>> you have to go through the menu step-by-step. What I'm talking about is
>> a direct hierarchical visualisation, that should be navigable with the
>> intuitiveness of org-mode.
>
> This is a bit vague. If we have a tree structure one can have some
> tree-like visualization (like the sidebar tree browsers) or have an
> outline like in org-mode. But how would you actually navigate quickly?
> Using Avy-like keys? What if the structure does not fit on the screen
> easily, what if there are cycles, ...?
I'm still thinking about all of this, and have to find the time to
implement a prototype. It might make sense to have a similar approach to
completing-read, where a variable like completing-read-function can
change everything.
A tree-like visualisation would probably make more sense, as long as it
can be manipulated using the keyboard. I mentioned org-mode thinking of
the org-cycle command, and how it allows you to hide and show subtrees.
> In the case of `completing-read` the current solutions are all pretty
> simple. If we ignore the special cases of dynamic completion tables,
> you just hand it this big flat list and filter until the data set
> becomes manageable. While some use cases seem to be a bit pressed into
> that framework (like if you have a hammer...), I think it works
> surprisingly well in many scenarios with a large number of
> unstructured candidates.
I use the default completion system, so for me it is not about filtering
a data set but expanding a string. Just to reiterate, this is exactly
the point I am bringing this up.
> To me it seems much harder to imagine something general which caters
> for all selection needs using an outline-like visualization.
It might be that it is too far fetched, but I have a (vague) idea how
selecting-read might look like and behave. A proper analysis of the
current situation and (imo) misuse of completing-read would probably be
necessary before actually building anything.
>> I don't think that selecting-read should replace completing-read. Rather
>> there are cases where completing-read is used like selecting-read, that
>> would profit from actually being selected by everyone, and not just
>> those who use completion frameworks that interpret completion as
>> selection.
>> I think there is more value in keeping completing-read simple, and focus
>> it on actual text expansion.
>
> Agree. Regarding "interpreting completion as selection" and "text
> expansion", I am unsure if there is a big difference. You always start
> with a set of possible completions and only for very few styles a
> prefix completion is possible. This has been mentioned before in this
> thread, I think.
I don't start with any set, I start with an (usually) empty prompt and
type a few letter, tab to check and then press enter. I try to avoid
unnecessary UI movement, which is why I have set
completion-cycle-threshold to t, so that I have to manually request a
"*Completions*" buffer. But even so, there are situations where
selection would be preferable. Usually when I don't know what my options
are.
>> In some sense the abundance of solutions around completion show that the
>> community wants something else than what completing-read provides by
>> default. I get why, as a lot of packages use completing-read. But it
>> might be better to start from the position we want to achieve, instead
>> of hacking our way towards that end.
>
> I am actually quite satisfied with the status quo given the many
> package options, where everyone seems to find a good fit. But maybe
> the name `completing-read` does not reflect anymore what it is since
> it is often used for something else than simple prefix expansion. The
> prefix/basic completion is baked pretty deeply in the completion APIs,
> e.g., `all-completions` and this got relaxed afterwards.
Well FWIW I'm not. I used Ivy for a long while, but ultimately gave it
up. There has been a lot of talk about {Selectrum,Embark,Orderless,...}
recently but I am not convinced that the approach these packages take
are on the right level. The only way to find out is to try something
else on the level I suspect there might be more potential for a better
solution.
> Daniel
>
--
Philip K.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2021-04-07 19:13 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 178+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2021-04-05 10:22 [ELPA] New package: vertico Daniel Mendler
2021-04-05 14:27 ` Manuel Uberti
2021-04-05 18:30 ` Stepping Back: A Wealth Of Completion systems " T.V Raman
2021-04-05 20:49 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-05 20:55 ` T.V Raman
2021-04-06 6:45 ` Arthur Miller
2021-04-06 15:15 ` Eric Abrahamsen
2021-04-06 15:56 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-07 12:09 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-07 12:23 ` Joost Kremers
2021-04-07 12:56 ` Daniel Mendler
2021-04-07 18:55 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-07 13:05 ` Yuri Khan
2021-04-07 13:45 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-07 14:15 ` Philip Kaludercic
[not found] ` <87eefm5fzl.fsf@posteo.net>
[not found] ` <3ec7e2e58a106c77370d@heytings.org>
2021-04-07 14:33 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-07 15:17 ` Daniel Mendler
2021-04-07 16:14 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-07 16:32 ` Daniel Mendler
2021-04-07 16:20 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-07 16:57 ` Daniel Mendler
2021-04-07 18:19 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-07 19:13 ` Philip Kaludercic [this message]
2021-04-07 19:47 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-07 20:03 ` Daniel Mendler
2021-04-07 22:31 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-09 6:21 ` Tassilo Horn
2021-04-09 8:53 ` Daniel Mendler
2021-04-09 17:22 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-09 18:51 ` Tassilo Horn
2021-04-07 23:07 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-07 19:24 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-07 18:19 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-07 18:13 ` Drew Adams
2021-04-07 15:24 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-07 16:10 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-07 16:49 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-07 17:40 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-07 17:48 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-07 19:22 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-07 19:03 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-07 14:31 ` T.V Raman
2021-04-07 16:02 ` Eric Abrahamsen
2021-04-07 18:18 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-09 6:40 ` Thierry Volpiatto
2021-04-10 4:20 ` Eric Abrahamsen
2021-04-07 18:49 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-07 20:33 ` Juri Linkov
2021-04-09 11:12 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-07 13:01 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-07 14:44 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-07 14:55 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-07 21:56 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-07 22:59 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-08 0:48 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-08 14:44 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-08 16:40 ` T.V Raman
2021-04-08 17:53 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-08 17:57 ` T.V Raman
2021-04-08 17:21 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-08 18:03 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-08 18:59 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-09 4:21 ` Eric Abrahamsen
2021-04-09 23:18 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-10 4:31 ` Eric Abrahamsen
2021-04-09 5:56 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-09 23:12 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-09 23:48 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-10 1:56 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-10 4:04 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-10 13:11 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-11 21:48 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-11 22:07 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-11 22:10 ` Drew Adams
2021-04-11 21:52 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-11 22:24 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-12 1:32 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-12 4:16 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-14 0:04 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-10 7:27 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-10 10:53 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-10 11:09 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-10 7:20 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-10 10:52 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-10 11:08 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-10 12:43 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-10 13:10 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-10 14:26 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-10 10:56 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-10 11:11 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-11 11:37 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-11 12:24 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-11 12:58 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-11 13:42 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-11 13:39 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-11 17:16 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-11 18:19 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-11 18:36 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-11 21:14 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-11 13:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-11 15:32 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-11 15:50 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-11 15:55 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-04-11 16:49 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-10 14:14 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-10 13:13 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-10 14:00 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-10 11:11 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-10 13:15 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-10 13:40 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-11 21:52 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-10 7:09 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-10 14:40 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-10 15:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-11 0:04 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-11 7:20 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-10 14:40 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-11 0:18 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-11 11:18 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-11 13:31 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-11 15:53 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-12 9:24 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-12 10:14 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-12 10:56 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-12 11:30 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-12 16:28 ` Eric Abrahamsen
2021-04-12 18:36 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-12 19:01 ` Eric Abrahamsen
2021-04-12 19:21 ` Drew Adams
2021-04-12 23:39 ` Eric Abrahamsen
2021-04-13 2:06 ` Drew Adams
2021-04-11 13:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-11 16:14 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-11 16:53 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-11 17:39 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-11 18:23 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-12 13:59 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-13 23:57 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-21 9:20 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-21 9:29 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-21 10:27 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-21 12:00 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-21 12:50 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-21 13:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-21 14:25 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-21 15:43 ` Yuri Khan
2021-04-21 17:29 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-21 19:22 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-21 19:25 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-21 19:35 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-21 14:13 ` Jean Louis
2021-04-21 14:35 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-21 20:31 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-21 13:14 ` Daniel Mendler
2021-04-21 14:21 ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-04-05 14:59 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-05 15:32 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-05 17:55 ` Daniel Mendler
2021-04-05 18:10 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-09 21:37 ` Tassilo Horn
2021-04-09 23:23 ` Daniel Mendler
2021-04-10 7:17 ` Tassilo Horn
2021-04-10 9:33 ` Daniel Mendler
2021-04-10 9:44 ` Tassilo Horn
2021-04-10 10:07 ` Daniel Mendler
2021-04-10 13:34 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-10 14:07 ` Daniel Mendler
2021-04-10 15:19 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-10 17:27 ` Tassilo Horn
2021-04-10 20:58 ` Juri Linkov
2021-04-10 7:18 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-10 9:21 ` Daniel Mendler
2021-04-10 9:30 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-10 9:38 ` Daniel Mendler
2021-04-10 10:00 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-10 10:14 ` Daniel Mendler
2021-04-10 9:38 ` Tassilo Horn
2021-04-10 10:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
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